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Post by phillw48 on Dec 27, 2011 10:30:39 GMT
I used to work near to Aldgate just after I left school and I was asked to do some overtime on a Saturday morning. The area was absolutely dead, not a shop open. At that time it was a largely Jewish area and its busiest day was Sunday when the Middlesex Street market (Petticoat Lane) was operating.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 27, 2011 11:22:44 GMT
One of the first stations I worked at after qualifying at the RTC in 1989 was at Aldgate. In those days after 1830 it was also absolutely dead then even M-F. Things may have changed now but certainly in those days it all finished at 6-.30pm. As a newcomer to LUL and after spending a number of years in the Private Manufacturing Sector I could never understand how keeping a station staffed when no one used it was viable. But after being on the job for a few months I soon got to learn the "rules" and nominated Watford/Croxley. Where I would be kept "Busy".
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 28, 2011 19:03:26 GMT
Second, convenience stores. Great. Totally illustrates what was said upthread - those of other faiths surely have no desire or need to 'celebrate' Christmas - it's a normal day - so what more normal thing than to open your store you've worked so hard to get the cash to buy it for? Of course, those running the shop may or may not be "of other faiths"!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 28, 2011 23:27:50 GMT
I personally couldn't give a flying **** about what service other countries provide over Christmas. Christmas Day + Boxing day = no service or very limited service. Full stop. Which is why we are lagging behind pretty much every other major world city. Our lack of a Christmas Day service is seen as a bit of a joke around the world. So maybe you should start giving a **** about what other countries do, and learn from them and why they are successful in what they do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 3:16:25 GMT
I personally couldn't give a flying **** about what service other countries provide over Christmas. Christmas Day + Boxing day = no service or very limited service. Full stop. Which is why we are lagging behind pretty much every other major world city. Our lack of a Christmas Day service is seen as a bit of a joke around the world. So maybe you should start giving a **** about what other countries do, and learn from them and why they are successful in what they do. Tell that to ASLEF mate.
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Post by phillw48 on Dec 29, 2011 10:02:45 GMT
I personally couldn't give a flying **** about what service other countries provide over Christmas. Christmas Day + Boxing day = no service or very limited service. Full stop. Which is why we are lagging behind pretty much every other major world city. Our lack of a Christmas Day service is seen as a bit of a joke around the world. So maybe you should start giving a **** about what other countries do, and learn from them and why they are successful in what they do. Most other countries have more public holidays than we do in the UK. I am old enough to remember when New Years Day was only a public holiday in Scotland which did not at that time have Boxing Day. I also remember going into work on January 1st with an enormous hangover.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Dec 29, 2011 15:18:34 GMT
As does phillw, l also remember when we had far fewer bank holidays over Christmas New Year, nor were other days treated as being bank holidays.
It would be interesting to know how many pax were actually carried by those trains that did run during the "strike"
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Post by 21146 on Dec 29, 2011 16:25:55 GMT
As does phillw, l also remember when we had far fewer bank holidays over Christmas New Year, nor were other days treated as being bank holidays. It would be interesting to know how many pax were actually carried by those trains that did run during the "strike" LU claim they ran 25% of the proposed Boxing Day service and this seemed quite adequate from my own observations. Maybe this should be the timetabled option next year?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 17:09:14 GMT
I think regardless of any religious beliefs most people see Christmas Day as a time to be with family and friends, trouble is often they can't get to see their family and friends because there is no public transport. This is a particular problem for people wishing to vist friends or relatives who are in hospital.
I do however think shops opening on Boxing Day is just ridiculous but there we are.
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Post by londonstuff on Dec 29, 2011 17:42:53 GMT
As does phillw, l also remember when we had far fewer bank holidays over Christmas New Year, nor were other days treated as being bank holidays. It would be interesting to know how many pax were actually carried by those trains that did run during the "strike" LU claim they ran 25% of the proposed Boxing Day service and this seemed quite adequate from my own observations. Maybe this should be the timetabled option next year? I was out on Boxing Day and the tube, generally, was dead. Waited 10 minutes at Pimlico for a southbound with about two people on the platform, about 8 on the Northern at Stockwell and later on in the day about 15+ at KX going towards Paddington. With 15-minute gaps there was quite a build-up on the platform although nothing compared to peak. While there I also saw Howard Collins get off a train in a *hideous* floral-type tie. The question to ponder is a bit of a chicken and egg one - would it have been like that anyway or did people deliberately keep away because of the strike? Certainly by Boxing Day there were a lot of people around and I've heard TfL say the number of Boris Bikes hired on Christmas Day and Boxing day were records. As regard to Boxing Day running, I'm quite neutral - I agree it's good to be with family over that period although the whole of Christmas and New Year does nothing for me. I'm fortunate to get three weeks off although I'd happily work and trade this in for longer in the summer.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 29, 2011 19:40:37 GMT
I think regardless of any religious beliefs most people see Christmas Day as a time to be with family and friends, trouble is often they can't get to see their family and friends because there is no public transport. This is a particular problem for people wishing to vist friends or relatives who are in hospital. Yet those of us who work in public transport are not entitled to the same? Sorry to pick up on your post but I've sat on my hands for long enough and you've raised the very point that I've been trying to keep to myself. I wonder how many of those who say buses & trains should run throughout Christmas day do shift work. I wonder how many of those who say buses & trains should run throughout Christmas day are enjoying a long break themselves. Christmas these days has got nothing to do with the religious aspect so lets leave that outside the door. Christmas in this country is all about spending time with family, giving presents and having a day off from the norm. Of course some will have no choice but to work (ie, emergency services, Airports, Hospital, TV & Radio) however these people knew that when they took the job. If you have a relative in hospital, or a job and don't drive, I can appreciate things will be difficult - maybe you'll appreciate those that possess driving skills a little more now. Often though there'll be a family member or friend that can help. Let's also not loose sight of the fact that we know this happens every year. It's always on the 25th December and it never changes. You have a whole year to plan for it. Unlike your 9 to 5 Monday to Friday guaranteed weekend off types, I'm prepared to get up for work at 3am to ensure your transportation to work is running for when you get up. I'm prepared to work and not get home till 2 am on a Friday or Saturday night so you can enjoy your night out. I'm even prepared to ensure I book on with no alcohol in my system to ensure your journey is safe. I don't care what other countries do. I live and work in the UK and I'm asking for just one day a year guaranteed off. I don't see why we can't all enjoy that benefit together, essential services excepted. Moving people from A to B isn't essential. Running water, medical & fire services are however.
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Post by peterc on Dec 29, 2011 20:39:44 GMT
Of course if Boxing Day is "normal" working day why are all these people skiving off work to go to the sales?
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 29, 2011 21:11:16 GMT
Colin, you have summed it up totally. Although I don't work for LUL now I did for a number of years and totally support what you have said.
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Post by plasmid on Dec 30, 2011 1:17:13 GMT
Sorry Lou, whilst London is a multi-cultural Capital, England is still very much a Christian Country as David Cameron rightly said a few weeks ago.
Hardly anyone was out on Christmas Day when I was travelling and TFL advertising the opening of services for next Christmas Day wouldn't attract any customers nor staff.
If staff works Christmas Day they would have only striked that one too.
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Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 2:04:11 GMT
Sorry Lou, whilst London is a multi-cultural Capital, England is still very much a Christian Country as David Cameron rightly said a few weeks ago. Hardly anyone was out on Christmas Day when I was travelling and TFL advertising the opening of services for next Christmas Day wouldn't attract any customers nor staff. I will put the opposite point of view, as there were quite a few cars out and about when I came home on Christmas Day evening, from visiting family during the day. Sufficiently so that I had to wait for 6-8 cars to pass waiting for a space at a busy roundabout. It is actually kind of ironic that much of the reduction in services on Christmas Day and Boxing Day has happened at the same time as the country has become more multicultural. I can still remember, in the 1980s, when the last trains on Christmas Eve ran into early Christmas morning, whereas now the last trains seem to have left London by about 10pm (although the Underground does at least run until normal Sunday finish times). Another point to consider is that newspapers (not all of the titles of course) are produced and distributed for Boxing Day, so at least some of their staff have to work on Christmas Day itself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 11:03:36 GMT
I think regardless of any religious beliefs most people see Christmas Day as a time to be with family and friends, trouble is often they can't get to see their family and friends because there is no public transport. This is a particular problem for people wishing to vist friends or relatives who are in hospital. Yet those of us who work in public transport are not entitled to the same? <snip> Christmas these days has got nothing to do with the religious aspect so lets leave that outside the door. Christmas in this country is all about spending time with family, giving presents and having a day off from the norm. Of course some will have no choice but to work (ie, emergency services, Airports, Hospital, TV & Radio) however these people knew that when they took the job. If you have a relative in hospital, or a job and don't drive, I can appreciate things will be difficult <snip> I don't care what other countries do. I live and work in the UK and I'm asking for just one day a year guaranteed off. I don't see why we can't all enjoy that benefit together, essential services excepted. Moving people from A to B isn't essential. Running water, medical & fire services are however. I would disagree: (public) transport is an essential service, at Christmas as throughout the year; and those who work in it should accept that, and its implications, in the same way as those in the other industries quoted. That being said, whether there is a necessity to open some or all of the tube, or whether a bus service would be adequate for London on Christmas Day (and in the night bus network, there is a defined skeletal system to start with), is a different issue, for further discussion (and on which I am uncertain). My experience of being on the roads on Christmas Day was that there was significant traffic (more than I've experienced at four or five in the morning on 'ordinary' days - when night buses are a noticeable element of it) Boxing (or St Stephen's) Day, and public holidays in lieu of Christmas and Boxing day being at weekend, on the other hand are 'normal' public holidays, with lots of places open, so a 'normal' public holiday service should be provided. And all this should be taken into account of when setting pay and conditions of service, and how duties and staff are matched, a field in which I don't feel qualified to comment beyond saying that it should be 'fair' all round.
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Post by rayb on Dec 30, 2011 11:39:08 GMT
Unlike your 9 to 5 Monday to Friday guaranteed weekend off types, I'm prepared to get up for work at 3am to ensure your transportation to work is running for when you get up. I'm prepared to work and not get home till 2 am on a Friday or Saturday night so you can enjoy your night out. I'm even prepared to ensure I book on with no alcohol in my system to ensure your journey is safe. Almost insulting, Colin. You make it sound as though we should all bow down in wonder. Either that or you are very disillusioned with the job. Can you remind us how much a T/O gets paid, please? You knew how the job worked when you signed up, so can we leave the "I do all this for you" out of this? That aside, have TfL/LUL or whoever makes the decisions ever looked at how much demand there is for a service on Christmas or Boxing day? Similarly - are volunteers sought from within to see if there are enough willing bodies available to provide these services - at a normal pay rates for the days in question (i.e. no extras on top of prevailing rates for a BH)? If there is not a significant enough demand, then so be it. However, the only way to really find out is to give it a go, and the time to start planning it is now. Advertise to the world that the Underground will be offering a full BH service right across the season in 2012 - there is plenty of time for people to be found to run it. I'd also want to see published the details of passenger numbers on the days in question - only then will the demand question be answered. As to getting staff, how about all new contracts have clauses inserted that say one may be required to provide service on Christmas Day, but only in cases where volunteers can't be found, and even then it'll be done by ballot and in plenty of time for the person concerned to make suitable plans? Stick in a promise that you'll only work one of these in a 5-year period, if ever and that should take care of things. If the clause went in tomorrow and the experiment proved that there is no need for a service, no one has lost out. If it proves there is a need, staff are already on notice that they may be required for the duty they signed up to. I pay way over the national average to live in London, owning and running a car has been priced so highly that many, many of us have few options but to use the TfL services and then there is the rocketing cost of fares. This "should we/shouldn't we" have Xmas services thing has been batted around for years, London is advertised abroad as a 24hr city and as others have pointed out, we are about the only country in Europe that does not have something on 25/6th December - which must do our image no end of harm, especially at a time when we need to up our profile. For the record, I'd love to see Sunday Trading banned outright, but as we have become a consumerist nation I can't see it happening, much to my dismay.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Dec 30, 2011 11:52:55 GMT
@ etr220 and RayB
Very well said. I am in total agreement. I am a passenger and a customer. I do not insult LU employees, and neither do I expect to be talked down to by any company with whom l am forced to place my business. If my daughter-in-law is forced to travel to work in a hospital on Christmas night/Boxing Day, having bought an LU ticket, why should she be forced to wait for then pay for a taxi just to get home after a 12 hour shift dealing with head injuries on people who have "celebrated" the religious holiday by tripping over a kerb and requiring an ambulance because they are so drunk?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2011 12:02:23 GMT
Which is why we are lagging behind pretty much every other major world city. Our lack of a Christmas Day service is seen as a bit of a joke around the world. So maybe you should start giving a **** about what other countries do, and learn from them and why they are successful in what they do. Tell that to ASLEF mate. Couldn't care less about the opinions of a dinosaur union. ASLEF are milking this Boxing Day situation and they know it. Anyway, I don't know why you mentioned ASLEF when I was referring to the fact that London is seen as a bit of a joke when compared to other cities around the world in respect of its Christmas transport arrangements.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 12:47:14 GMT
Couldn't care less about the opinions of a dinosaur union. ASLEF are milking this Boxing Day situation and they know it. Anyway, I don't know why you mentioned ASLEF when I was referring to the fact that London is seen as a bit of a joke when compared to other cities around the world in respect of its Christmas transport arrangements. This thread is about lack of train services at Christmas. ASLEF represent the majority of train drivers so their opinion does count. Anyway plenty of buses were operating in boxing day.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Dec 30, 2011 13:20:33 GMT
I may be opening another hornets' nest here:
I do not understand why, as there is no service on Christmas day, weekly tickets over Christmas day are not valid for an extra day? I can see that monthly tickets are normally valid for 30 or 31 days, so effectively December is a 30-day month as far as the ability to use a ticket is concerned, but to loose one day out of a weekly ticket seems to me to be unnecessarily harsh to passengers.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2011 13:54:48 GMT
Couldn't care less about the opinions of a dinosaur union. ASLEF are milking this Boxing Day situation and they know it. Anyway, I don't know why you mentioned ASLEF when I was referring to the fact that London is seen as a bit of a joke when compared to other cities around the world in respect of its Christmas transport arrangements. This thread is about lack of train services at Christmas. ASLEF represent the majority of train drivers so their opinion does count. Anyway plenty of buses were operating in boxing day. But who's talking about train drivers? It may well represent the majority, but that doesn't mean that it's correct in its stance. ASLEF does not, however, represent the majority of the general public. My point to you with in reference to your original point along the lines of Christmas Day + Boxing Day = Little or No Service. Can you explain your reasoning behind that without referring to ASLEF / RMT etc? Train drivers serve the public, not the other way round.
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Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 14:09:02 GMT
I may be opening another hornets' nest here: I do not understand why, as there is no service on Christmas day, weekly tickets over Christmas day are not valid for an extra day? I can see that monthly tickets are normally valid for 30 or 31 days, so effectively December is a 30-day month as far as the ability to use a ticket is concerned, but to loose one day out of a weekly ticket seems to me to be unnecessarily harsh to passengers. Of course, the weekly season ticket is only approximately the cost of 3 1/2 to 4 day tickets, so a weekly holder hasn't really lost out at all. Also, this year, as Christmas Day was a Sunday have you really lost out on the normal week?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 15:06:08 GMT
This thread is about lack of train services at Christmas. ASLEF represent the majority of train drivers so their opinion does count. Anyway plenty of buses were operating in boxing day. But who's talking about train drivers? It may well represent the majority, but that doesn't mean that it's correct in its stance. ASLEF does not, however, represent the majority of the general public. My point to you with in reference to your original point along the lines of Christmas Day + Boxing Day = Little or No Service. Can you explain your reasoning behind that without referring to ASLEF / RMT etc? Train drivers serve the public, not the other way round. I think we should agree to disagree on this one. Hope you had a good Christmas and that the new year brings you the things you wish for.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2011 15:13:22 GMT
But who's talking about train drivers? It may well represent the majority, but that doesn't mean that it's correct in its stance. ASLEF does not, however, represent the majority of the general public. My point to you with in reference to your original point along the lines of Christmas Day + Boxing Day = Little or No Service. Can you explain your reasoning behind that without referring to ASLEF / RMT etc? Train drivers serve the public, not the other way round. I think we should agree to disagree on this one. Hope you had a good Christmas and that the new year brings you the things you wish for. Fair enough. You too.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 30, 2011 17:52:43 GMT
I would disagree: (public) transport is an essential service, at Christmas as throughout the year; and those who work in it should accept that, and its implications, in the same way as those in the other industries quoted. You can only argue its essential if you have no access to, or cannot drive a car, and you must get from A to B (ie, for work) when comparing with the likes of utilities & emergency services. Persons who work in hospitals, for example, have the same flexibility as us in public transport - they can swap their time at work, book annual leave, etc. We all know when the 25th December is and "its implications". And all this should be taken into account of when setting pay and conditions of service, and how duties and staff are matched, a field in which I don't feel qualified to comment beyond saying that it should be 'fair' all round. Why do you think there is currently a dispute over Boxing Day then? Quite simply, the goal posts have been moved beyond what was previously agreed without consultation. Almost insulting, Colin. You make it sound as though we should all bow down in wonder. Either that or you are very disillusioned with the job. Not at all - if you're going to attack my job don't be surprised if I defend my corner. Can you remind us how much a T/O gets paid, please? You knew how the job worked when you signed up, so can we leave the "I do all this for you" out of this? We all know what drivers get paid - its the only job everyone's an expert in. But people if are gonna keep bringing up the headline figure I reserve the right to point out some of the reasons why it is so. I worked damn hard to get my job, including learning all the rules & regs, stock, line knowledge, etc. It takes six months of training to be a train driver and its not something any Tom, Dick or Harry can do despite what Boris Johnson would have you believe. I would also point out that we lose the best part of £1,000 in deductions every month. Yes, I won't lie, I aimed for the job cos it pays well. Sorry!! Now when I took the job Christmas day working was not on the agenda and Boxing day was subject to a depot rotation system. If you now wish to change my terms & conditions of employment, don't be surprised if I try to resist you. That aside, have TfL/LUL or whoever makes the decisions ever looked at how much demand there is for a service on Christmas or Boxing day? Similarly - are volunteers sought from within to see if there are enough willing bodies available to provide these services - at a normal pay rates for the days in question (i.e. no extras on top of prevailing rates for a BH)? No, LU does not seek volunteers to work Boxing day. This has been suggested as part of the current ASLEF dispute but has hitherto been dismissed by LU. As to getting staff, how about all new contracts have clauses inserted that say one may be required to provide service on Christmas Day, but only in cases where volunteers can't be found, and even then it'll be done by ballot and in plenty of time for the person concerned to make suitable plans? Stick in a promise that you'll only work one of these in a 5-year period, if ever and that should take care of things. Changes to terms & conditions of employment have to go through certain processes (including the Unions in the case of LU). Sadly though, as proved by the current ASLEF dispute, LU has a poor history of guaranteeing time off and then tearing up such agreements.[/quote] @ etr220 and RayB Very well said. I am in total agreement. I am a passenger and a customer. I do not insult LU employees, and neither do I expect to be talked down to by any company with whom l am forced to place my business. If my daughter-in-law is forced to travel to work in a hospital on Christmas night/Boxing Day, having bought an LU ticket, why should she be forced to wait for then pay for a taxi just to get home after a 12 hour shift dealing with head injuries on people who have "celebrated" the religious holiday by tripping over a kerb and requiring an ambulance because they are so drunk? Whilst I do have some sympathy with your daughter in law, I and my colleagues also have to deal with such people on a very regular basis - its not widely known that I was assaulted at work last Easter; the upshot being that I was knocked out by my so called customers. If you work in an A&E department it's a fair bet you are going to come across injured people, self inflicted or otherwise. You also would have know that you'll be expected to work on Christmas day (or indeed other undesirable days) before you took the job. Train drivers serve the public, not the other way round. And I bet you're also part of the "I pay your wages" brigade too. I am a human being not a robot. I was brought up to believe that Christmas day is a special day - why else do we greet each other with "seasons greetings", call it the festive period, give each other presents & cards, eat dinner with silly hats on and pull crackers with lame jokes inside? Just because I'm a train driver I should now see it as a normal working day? Again don't be surprised if I choose to defend my corner!!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2011 18:14:46 GMT
I'm certainly not a member of the "I Pay Your Wages" brigade! And I totally understand your views and objections to working on Christmas Day.
Yes, it is a "special" day, but then again, there are lots of special days. Also, Christmas is celebrated in many countries, but they still manage to run a service - as indeed we did up until 1979.
Arguably, Thanksgiving in the USA is a much bigger celebration, but they wouldn't dream of not having transportation on that day.
Colin, I don't blame you for not wanting to work on Xmas Day. But I firmly believe that Christmas Day services will be back sooner rather than later.
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Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 18:53:51 GMT
Why do you think there is currently a dispute over Boxing Day then? Quite simply, the goal posts have been moved beyond what was previously agreed without consultation. Have they, or did the ASLEF negotiators not think about the possibility when they came to the agreement? After all, services have also increased on Bank Holidays compared to the past, with Saturday timetables, rather than the Sunday service which used to be more common. How much effort would it have been to have made Boxing Day a 'special day' in the agreement, if the union had thought about it?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 30, 2011 19:12:36 GMT
Colin, I don't blame you for not wanting to work on Xmas Day. But I firmly believe that Christmas Day services will be back sooner rather than later. Sadly, I suspect you may be right. Have they, or did the ASLEF negotiators not think about the possibility when they came to the agreement? After all, services have also increased on Bank Holidays compared to the past, with Saturday timetables, rather than the Sunday service which used to be more common. How much effort would it have been to have made Boxing Day a 'special day' in the agreement, if the union had thought about it? The agreements you refer to were made some 18 years ago (1994 I believe) - it is quite fair to say things will change in that time and that the future that far ahead cannot be predicted. It is therefore also right that the issue be revisited by both LU and the Unions and agreement on a way forward reached. It is a shame when it comes to having to be in an industrial dispute to get something resolved rather than both 'sides' working together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 19:56:15 GMT
Two questions if I may
Would there be any train ops who would be on contracts from the time that LU last ran Christmas day services who possibly could be compelled to work?
Secondly in my line of work for me Christmas day is now entirely voluntary, however for those for whom it isnt generally work shifts finishing or start early to mid afternoon giving them some family time. What sorts of booking on times would train ops likely to have had on Christmas day, given the earlier shut down would it have been come in early and all done by late afternoon?
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