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Post by mcmaddog on Jul 28, 2011 11:31:06 GMT
Roughly one month on has it made a noticeable difference?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Jul 28, 2011 11:56:39 GMT
Carriages with windows which passengers can open themselves!
Gosh!, what will they think of next?
How much money would that save through not needing "cooling systems" and the extra weight each carriage will have to lug around for the full 12 months of every year when "cooling systems" would not be necessary.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 28, 2011 18:49:14 GMT
Roughly one month on has it made a noticeable difference? Well I exorcised my demons yesterday be going on the Vic for the first since riding on the last 67. The 09's do seem to be kicking out less heat, although they are still far from cool! Also, I noticed that on some units, the floors have been cleaned, which makes them look newer again! Shame about the seating though - wearing out already, surely TFL can have a pop at Bombardier about that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2011 19:14:18 GMT
Shame about the seating though - wearing out already, surely TFL can have a pop at Bombardier about that? As far as I know, LU specifies the moquette to be used on each line. It is probably a result of the amount of light blue and white used on the 09 Stock seats. The northern line (sure that is the black, yellow, pinky one) may look like cat sick, but stays looking fairly clean because it is predominently dark colour.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jul 29, 2011 20:00:33 GMT
Shame about the seating though - wearing out already, surely TFL can have a pop at Bombardier about that? As far as I know, LU specifies the moquette to be used on each line. It is probably a result of the amount of light blue and white used on the 09 Stock seats. The northern line (sure that is the black, yellow, pinky one) may look like cat sick, but stays looking fairly clean because it is predominently dark colour. Hmmmm... Difficult to say without being grotesque, but.... Several hundred sweaty backsides hit those seats every day - Your own front room furniture would struggle to cope with the deposits there every day - The greasy Macs, coffee spillage, sweat to the highest disorder, puke and I don't know what else over the 16-18 hours a day that they are in service. I'm amazed they last a week, let alone the lifespan they cover!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2011 21:23:41 GMT
Only solution is to progressively remove items of clothing, within reason!
If not, I just deal with it and learn my lessons for next time round.
and this is from someone who's not native to London
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2011 21:43:57 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 10:56:49 GMT
Was back on the Vic yesterday to see how hot it was (on a much hotter day than when I tried it last Wednesday). It does feel a bit cooler than in the past, but those 09's still give off a lot of heat!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 23:46:37 GMT
I wonder if the perception that they give off a lot of heat is because they have force cooled brake resistors, as opposed to conventionally cooled ones fitted to all other stocks (except S Stock). This is a different philosophy, as the resistor heats during the stop then dumps heat quickly, rather than cooling naturally beneath the train at a much lower rate. i.e. the 09 Stock concentrate the heat they give off more - resulting in: 1. Higher temperatures on platforms 2. Elevated temperatures around the train to get sucked in by the PV.
When you compare an 09 to a 67 TS braking curve they are very similar. They also weigh similar amounts, so the overall heat energy generated during a stop must be a similar amount.
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Post by mcmaddog on Oct 1, 2011 9:06:51 GMT
I'm guessing this has been the first week of continuous hot temperatures since full fleet service given the cool summer. How has the vic line environment fared? (travelled on the sweaty central line last night which reminded me)
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Post by 100andthirty on Oct 1, 2011 12:52:23 GMT
When you compare an 09 to a 67 TS braking curve they are very similar. They also weigh similar amounts, so the overall heat energy generated during a stop must be a similar amount. The braking rate for the '09ts is some 10 to 15% higher than for the '67ts. Moreover, the brake entry speed is, for many stations, a little higher than it was for '67ts. all this means more heat. however the new trains have regenerative braking and this is relieving the situation somewhat. Bottom line, though......... if the weather is hot, the tube will be hot too!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2011 14:25:22 GMT
Can't we just cool the stations? There must be a lot more room in there for air conditioning; plus, when the train doors opened at a station, heat would be directly transferred onto the cool platforms, cooling the train inside.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 1, 2011 17:53:02 GMT
Can't we just cool the stations? There must be a lot more room in there for air conditioning; plus, when the train doors opened at a station, heat would be directly transferred onto the cool platforms, cooling the train inside. Will be pretty hard and thus expensive to aircon the stations without platform screen doors - as it will also, as a side effect, aircon the tubes, and thus a much larger area.
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SE13
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RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
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Post by SE13 on Oct 1, 2011 18:23:27 GMT
Can't we just cool the stations? There must be a lot more room in there for air conditioning; plus, when the train doors opened at a station, heat would be directly transferred onto the cool platforms, cooling the train inside. Unless PEDs are fitted, the cool air is just going into the pipes, remember cool air sinks, hot air rises. Not to mention that some stations are at a heck of a depth making it almost impossible anyhow. I think it would be far more bearable down there if people used deodorant which would be a fantastic start. Nothing worse than being hot and sweaty and having to suffer BO in full effect up your nasal passages.
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 2, 2011 14:50:58 GMT
The tube is genrally more cooler in winter the subsurface lines will not feel the heat much. I find the deep lines are warm in the winter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2011 15:37:58 GMT
I seem to remember reading that deep line stations are often heated in the winter... If this was stopped, the tunnels would cool during the winter trapping less heat under the London clay which would leave them generally cooler in the summer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 9:15:25 GMT
Bit off topic but while travelling from Blackhorse Road to Oxford Circus on saturday, I realised that some bright spark put grab rails in such a position that you can't read the top of the maps. I'm not saying I don't know the map, but for people who don't it must be a pain to slouch down to see where Kings Cross St Pancras is on the Central London Tube Map.
Also, the ventilation simply blows hot air at you...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 12:51:56 GMT
Bit off topic but while travelling from Blackhorse Road to Oxford Circus on saturday, I realised that some bright spark put grab rails in such a position that you can't read the top of the maps. I'm not saying I don't know the map, but for people who don't it must be a pain to slouch down to see where Kings Cross St Pancras is on the Central London Tube Map. Also, the ventilation simply blows hot air at you... Or alternatively, some bright spark put a map behind the grab rail!
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 12, 2011 14:07:23 GMT
Can't we just cool the stations? There must be a lot more room in there for air conditioning; plus, when the train doors opened at a station, heat would be directly transferred onto the cool platforms, cooling the train inside. Unless PEDs are fitted, the cool air is just going into the pipes, remember cool air sinks, hot air rises. Not to mention that some stations are at a heck of a depth making it almost impossible anyhow. I think it would be far more bearable down there if people used deodorant which would be a fantastic start. Nothing worse than being hot and sweaty and having to suffer BO in full effect up your nasal passages. Deodorant... They should hand that out in combination with the water.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 18:11:46 GMT
Also, the ventilation simply blows hot air at you... I was on the Vic on sat too but from Euston to Stockwell. I had a seat and the train wasn't packed by any means, but it was a very pleasant journey both in terms of comfort and temperature.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 20:53:10 GMT
The 09s are cooler than the 67s as you don't have the problem of getting on some cars with the heating jammed on in the summer.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 6, 2012 21:01:14 GMT
No heaters on 67s - whole line below ground.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 21:28:19 GMT
No heaters on 67s - whole line below ground. I knew they took the heater fuses out in the 1980s. Then in around 1999/2000 they fitted the fans in ceilings which were first put in place a decade earlier as part of the refurb. However, the strange thing with the 67s and it was most common with the middle DMs was the area below seats would be warm/hot and the carriarge would be very hot, but the next carriage, for example, would be cooler and the areas below the seats would be cool as well. I have come across this problem on the Bakerloo 72s as well, but not as wide spread as it was on the 67s.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 7, 2012 12:13:08 GMT
No heaters on 67s - whole line below ground. I knew they took the heater fuses out in the 1980s. Then in around 1999/2000 they fitted the fans in ceilings which were first put in place a decade earlier as part of the refurb. However, the strange thing with the 67s and it was most common with the middle DMs was the area below seats would be warm/hot and the carriarge would be very hot, but the next carriage, for example, would be cooler and the areas below the seats would be cool as well. I have come across this problem on the Bakerloo 72s as well, but not as wide spread as it was on the 67s. Think you have provided your own answer. DM has motors and T does not. Heat from motors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 14:31:37 GMT
I knew they took the heater fuses out in the 1980s. Then in around 1999/2000 they fitted the fans in ceilings which were first put in place a decade earlier as part of the refurb. However, the strange thing with the 67s and it was most common with the middle DMs was the area below seats would be warm/hot and the carriage would be very hot, but the next carriage, for example, would be cooler and the areas below the seats would be cool as well. I have come across this problem on the Bakerloo 72s as well, but not as wide spread as it was on the 67s. Think you have provided your own answer. DM has motors and T does not. Heat from motors. Hi and thanks for the reply. Motors don't effect the carriage like that with stifling heat which heats the metal under the seats. The heaters on some cars were switched on/heater contactors stuck in. The heat was coming from all the places where the heaters are placed, as well as the the middle companion seats. Heaters could also be on in the trailer cars as well, but as I mentioned it was more common in the middle motor cars. I have come across only once when train equipment has been heating the passenger saloon and this was when there was a burst on the compressor pipe and the compressors were running non stop and just able to maintain the mainline pipe pressure. The car floor was hot like there was underfloor heating! ;D This was not the case with the 67s, where the heat was only coming from the heater pads. When you entered a 67 car with the heaters on, you could sense it was unnatural heat and not down to body heat, it was just the same with new buses in London a few years ago that had their heaters on in the summer and could not be switched off by the driver, only by the garage staff.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 14:33:00 GMT
No heaters on 67s - whole line below ground. The 67 stock did have cab and saloon heaters under driver/thermostatic control. On page 6 of TfL's data sheet, 1967 Tube Stock Victoria Line Heating: Panel heaters, 4.2kW per car. Ventilation: Seven extractor fans per car, two of which are inverter-fed from the battery. Manually operated ventilators over saloon side windows. www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/foi/Rolling_stock_Data_Sheet_2nd_Edition.pdf
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