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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:01:41 GMT
Ive never found the Jubilee to be hot at all
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:04:16 GMT
cityboy: yes they are some solutions, but not entire solutions. `In an earlier post I mentioned that we need 2 or 3 more crossrails at least. Even Chelsea Hackney hasn't got off the ground, so I have no hope for more crossrails. The primary purpose of Thameslink 2000 was not to get people off the tube, but to relieve congestion and enhance capacity on the national rail network with more through journeys from the home counties and beyond. TFL did make a grab for it, thank heavens they were unsuccessful. I can't see the DLR as a solution for getting people of the deep level tube, as it was originally designed to provide a service where there was no tube and as a cheap way of connecting docklands. Then extentions over the last few years had the same purpose. One could argue that it has in fact been responsible for dumping more people onto the tube network
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:07:59 GMT
The Jubilee isn't too bad, in my experience. Oddly, the City branch of the Northern line seems to be hotter than the Charing Cross branch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:10:28 GMT
cityboy: yes they are some solutions, but not entire solutions. `In an earlier post I mentioned that we need 2 or 3 more crossrails at least. Even Chelsea Hackney hasn't got off the ground, so I have no hope for more crossrails. The primary purpose of Thameslink 2000 was not to get people off the tube, but to relieve congestion and enhance capacity on the national rail network with more through journeys from the home counties and beyond. TFL did make a grab for it, thank heavens they were unsuccessful. I can't see the DLR as a solution for getting people of the deep level tube, as it was originally designed to provide a service where there was no tube and as a cheap way of connecting docklands. Then extentions over the last few years had the same purpose. One could argue that it has in fact been responsible for dumping more people onto the tube network Shut down all public transport. Then there will be no issues with hot passengers. Ah, Los Angeles a commuter utopia... ;D Seriously, Rome wasn't built in a day. Crossrail will help on the Central which get's very hot and congested. Would you suggest that no tube upgrades be carried out at all until there is a RER type network in place? Or simply that we allow for same speeds, same crush loads, and then have more people standing on the platform waiting to board a train for longer and creating more heat which is then trapped in the deep level network. Reality bites and it takes years of investment and even then, as you've hinted, there tends to be suppressed demand for public transport. In essence, the more you invest, the more you attract people to the network(s). But if you don't invest in capacity, when you have a dynamic and increasingly mobile populous such as London, the number of passengers attempting to use the existing service is going to increase non the less.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:12:38 GMT
London Bridge (Northern Line) is pretty dire at times especially when the smell of sewage wafts through the platform - heaven knows where that comes from. Bank Central line is very bad, as is Piccadilly Bakerloo
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Post by edwin on Jun 29, 2011 2:45:24 GMT
Apart from cost, what are the other obstacles from putting conventional air conditioning at tube stations? Also, is the JLE air conditioned?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 4:47:09 GMT
Apart from cost, what are the other obstacles from putting conventional air conditioning at tube stations? Also, is the JLE air conditioned? Tunnel diameter. There's not sufficient room for the heat to be dispersed in the (narrow) deep level tunnels so that it could escape the system. The only way of changing this is closing lines and enlarging tunnels. Presuming there is neither the money nor the political/public appetite to shut line and enlargen the tunnels, in order to add aircon, new carriages would have to be made even smaller which on small profile, deep level tubes isn't palatable for anyone over 5'10"/175cm and would ultimately result in lower capacity.
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Post by North End on Jun 29, 2011 10:58:34 GMT
Don't forget the lack of substantial investment in LUL from the government for the past 20 + years. Both gov's IMO who have used LUL as a political football and have shown they couldn't care less about improving it much unless they can get some brownie points from the public. An alternative should be found but in the short term a solution to deep level problems MUST be found as a matter of urgency. Its still critical that the tube works whether or not we have crossrail. I think the fanshafts on the jubilee are pretty effective, there are loads on the old section aswell as the JLE. You can hear the slam on the door as you go past them in the running tunnels round Baker Street way I think. Well Baker Street Jubilee platforms have a large open shaft all the way to the surface which does aid cooling on the platforms. There is also a shaft between the Bakerloo and Jubilee just off the platforms and then there are the cable shafts to the substation, disused lift shafts up to the Met etc. Bond Street also has plenty of non-public areas of cable passageways and shafts too which circulate large amounts of air. Some of the older Bakerloo is quite unbearable at times but of course at Embankment there are lots of passageways, shafts etc behind the scenes and Lambeth North has the tunnel to London Road to aid air circulation otherwise Elephant and Castle would be far worse a place than it is. One of the lift landings and the disused lift shaft at Lambeth North are connected via passageways & shafts to the Northern Line, the lift shaft acting as a fan shaft (although I've never heard the fan running there).
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Post by ducatisti on Jun 29, 2011 11:00:15 GMT
Did the mayor's public prize ever get paid out?
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 29, 2011 13:49:04 GMT
People complain about the heat on the system, yet nobody ever mentions the greenhouses on wheels otherwise known as buses. They aren't air conditioned, are generally absolutely baking in the summer months, but never a remark about them! Even worse if you are stuck in the drivers seat separated from air by those poxy bandit screens.
It's an age old problem on the deep level lines, it's nigh on impossible to force cool air from the surface to platform level at Covent Garden for instance. I don't think it's any worse now than it was when I was a youngster, perhaps it's just because people think that throwing a few air-con units down there will make all the difference these days.
As a well known engineer once piped up in a song; "Ye cannae change the laws of physics"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 13:55:47 GMT
SE13 - a lot of buses round here have cab air con behind the bandit screens!
All new London double-deckers have forced air cooling or air conditioning. Particularly on the upper deck; I haven't noticed it downstairs on the Eclipse Gemini 2s; they are rather warm then.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 29, 2011 14:06:47 GMT
SE13 - a lot of buses round here have cab air con behind the bandit screens! Yes, I do tend to forget that everything is donkeys years behind here! But from a passenger point of view, I can't imagine that the heat issues of a crammed bus are too much different between Lincoln and London.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 17:30:02 GMT
I'm not saying tube upgrades shouldn't be carried out until we have have a network of crossrails. The upgrade programme covers much more than squeezing more passengers onto the tube., such as clearing the backlog of track replacement. The upgrades relating to extra capacity aren't going to relieve crush loads, they may provide some relief for a couple of years but that's it. I am saying that the authorities should be planning to accommodate long term passenger growth on new, crossrail-type lines. I for one don't believe all the management hype that we will enter some utopia as soon as the current upgrade programme has been complete. An upgrade programme isn't enough, an expansion programme is needed.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 29, 2011 17:45:19 GMT
I'm not saying tube upgrades shouldn't be carried out until we have have a network of crossrails. The upgrade programme covers much more than squeezing more passengers onto the tube., such as clearing the backlog of track replacement. The upgrades relating to extra capacity aren't going to relieve crush loads, they may provide some relief for a couple of years but that's it. I am saying that the authorities should be planning to accommodate long term passenger growth on new, crossrail-type lines. I for one don't believe all the management hype that we will enter some utopia as soon as the current upgrade programme has been complete. An upgrade programme isn't enough, an expansion programme is needed. Without risking creeping into RIPAS, and perhaps this thread should split with ideas and proposals to get round this very thing, my view is that the tube (DLL) need more trains at a higher capacity per hour to shift numbers of people, so things like the regen braking will work, and numbers of people waiting on platforms are lowered, thus temperatures are reduced. I think the idea of crossrail expansions and potential DLL links and solutions are better suited to RIPAS as linked above.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 17:49:22 GMT
But plans are in place. Crossrail was forced through in spite of cutbacks in all governmental departments and the project having been under review. The C-H route is safeguarded under law.
But the government has decided to invest both in the regions and London in HS2 as the next big capital expenditure project. With limited finances, you can plan all you like but if you can't afford it then it's no good. anything further without real likelihood of furthering the projects and you end up with a situation where public finances and time are both wasted in the planning process.
I digress. We're all somewhat pre-judging the addition of regen braking and the upgrade of all the vent shafts and fans. I've presumed these upgrades will cause a big heat reduction others have presumed it will not. Without forecasting models or empirical and comparative evidence of small profile tunnels similar rock type etc, we are putting quite a lot of belief in things like intuition.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 29, 2011 17:51:00 GMT
Buses aren't so bad - they have opening windows, and opening doors, and can run with doors open when it's sunny to get air through.
Surely it doesn't make sense to put air-con in offices etc underground, as it just makes the station as a whole warmer?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 18:10:34 GMT
But the government has decided to invest both in the regions and London in HS2 as the next big capital expenditure project. With limited finances, you can plan all you like but if you can't afford it then it's no good. anything further without real likelihood of furthering the projects and you end up with a situation where public finances and time are both wasted in the planning process. i did allude to this when I first mentioned it. I said when you consider all the money wasted by governments in the past it could have been affordable. What's happening now is about making the best of what money there is, and I think it's all credit to this government that they have shown at least some forsight in not cancelling too many major capital projects. Crossrail will provide welcome relief but it's not enough. HS2 will not help london. There is no future in hoping that the current upgrades, which is largely about upgrading the current system, will provide anything like a long term solution. As you say we don't know if the heating issue will improve with regen breaking on the Victoria Line, either way heat is a serious issue on the tube and there are no serious plans to tackle it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 11:27:05 GMT
Does anyone know when regen braking will be fully operational and when all the vent shafts will have been upgraded?
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 10, 2011 11:35:26 GMT
Does anyone know when regen braking will be fully operational and when all the vent shafts will have been upgraded? Regen fully enabled last week; New fans being gradually implemented as they're completed - target completion Autumn 2011 Eeectrical sections reduced from 10 to 3 about March 2012. Coasting enabled from about March 2012
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 13:39:41 GMT
thanks
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Post by superteacher on Jul 10, 2011 20:22:19 GMT
Haven't been on an 09 since the regen was fully switched on. Has anybody noticed a cooling down yet?
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 10, 2011 20:52:26 GMT
Haven't been on an 09 since the regen was fully switched on. Has anybody noticed a cooling down yet? I was briefly on the Vic line on Saturday morning. I can't say I noticed the heat was any different, but I think the brakes were certainly quieter on approach to stations.
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Post by jardine01 on Jul 11, 2011 18:45:48 GMT
The victoria line is very hot I have a tempature indicatior and it was well past 35 Degrees!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 19:03:15 GMT
The couple of times I've been on the line in the last week or so it has seemed cooler both on the trains and platforms. Of course this might be because the weather's been cooler
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 19:40:19 GMT
Your right I was on the platform and there don't seem to be much heat coming from the trains anymore
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Post by julianhmltn on Jul 12, 2011 11:54:37 GMT
Yesterday there was current problems on the Victoria ! Stuck in very hot train in tunnel for 15 mins !!
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Post by plasmid on Jul 12, 2011 13:17:07 GMT
That's not so bad when you have the trains pumping in air.
Even if the air is hot at least air is being pumped in which makes it easier to breathe compared with other tube stocks.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 12, 2011 18:41:20 GMT
That's not so bad when you have the trains pumping in air. Even if the air is hot at least air is being pumped in which makes it easier to breathe compared with other tube stocks. What you mean like a fan assisted oven?
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Post by plasmid on Jul 12, 2011 19:55:22 GMT
alwyas a sarcastic one... what's next? incoming jardine01 - preformance?
easier to breathe it is regardless of it blowing around hot air. like a desk fan.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 12, 2011 21:01:34 GMT
alwyas a sarcastic one... what's next? incoming jardine01 - preformance? easier to breathe it is regardless of it blowing around hot air. like a desk fan. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit - it also happens to be the funniest! ;D ;D I just hope things really do get cooler on those 09's.
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