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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 13:36:36 GMT
Have you actually been to the four depots you mentioned to see how it's a "piece of cake" to make such places driverless? More to the point, if the chap knows how to do it so easily and with no effect on safety or efficiency he should be at LUL's door right away with a fully costed plan for them to implement immediately. He would become a millionaire many times over as a result and the saviour of London in the process.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 29, 2011 16:40:31 GMT
I sincerely doubt that. As the thread shows not only do a lot of staff doubt it can be done, but don't want it to be done either. Even if it could be done. Which I personally have no clue about. But 'can't', 'shouldn't' and 'won't' all result in a 'not' irrespective.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 9:08:57 GMT
I sincerely doubt that. As the thread shows not only do a lot of staff doubt it can be done, but don't want it to be done either. Even if it could be done. Which I personally have no clue about. But 'can't', 'shouldn't' and 'won't' all result in a 'not' irrespective. # Indeed Ben. I'm afraid my sarcasm gets away from me sometimes.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 31, 2011 13:17:36 GMT
Not atall, I'm ever the fan of a good bit of the old sarcasm! Just thought though that the elephant in the room is that even if it were technically possible, a lot of people actively dont want it, and in some respects that could be the biggest challenge to surmount.
However its progress. From gatemen and conductors, to guards, to TOps, to PSAs. From boxes to SCCs, to network control. Etc etc. Whatever people think this is nothing new; the writings been on the wall for decades.
It was Frank Pick himself who stated in 1928 the aims of the undertaking were to "save labour, yet to increase efficiency; to give better service to the public, yet to raise the standard of wages; to attract traffic and to bring the underground railways to prosperity; these are the ultimate aims of the multiplicity of details pursued with care and ingenuity..."
Personally I'd go the other way, to be more like the railways of India. I'd knock 17k off a drivers salary and hire a guard for the difference. But no one would agree to that. Even if it did mean someone to have company with in the cab, someone to share risk with, and someone to be at your immediate aid.
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Post by zakwebb on Jan 31, 2011 16:44:51 GMT
I have only skimmed through this topic so if this has been covered my appologies.
Driverless trains???!!! What happens if there is debris on the tracks? If some kid throws something on the track? If there is somebody on the tracks?
Only a driver can see this and stop the train in time or notify control of the situation.
It is totally unsafe. How can anyone even consider having driverless trains? Especially on a mass transit system.
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Post by andypurk on Jan 31, 2011 17:39:25 GMT
I have only skimmed through this topic so if this has been covered my appologies. Driverless trains???!!! What happens if there is debris on the tracks? If some kid throws something on the track? If there is somebody on the tracks? Only a driver can see this and stop the train in time or notify control of the situation. It is totally unsafe. How can anyone even consider having driverless trains? Especially on a mass transit system. If it is such a totally unsafe idea, then how come RATP in Paris is currently converting Metro line 1 to a fully automatic system (to join line 14 which was automatic from opening)? Sure there will be problems to solve when introducing driverless trains to existing lines, but there are already several other fully automatic systems in operation which run above ground and potentially could suffer objects on the track (as couple of examples being the DLR, the Lille Metro).
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 31, 2011 17:45:58 GMT
Indeed. A lot of the answers, opinions and postulations are noted over the past five pages, Zakwebb
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Post by flippyff on Jan 31, 2011 23:04:34 GMT
I have only skimmed through this topic so if this has been covered my appologies. Driverless trains???!!! What happens if there is debris on the tracks? If some kid throws something on the track? If there is somebody on the tracks? Only a driver can see this and stop the train in time or notify control of the situation. It is totally unsafe. How can anyone even consider having driverless trains? Especially on a mass transit system. You right! Get on the phone to the DLR immedietely!
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Post by andypurk on Feb 1, 2011 9:00:04 GMT
*****You right! Get on the phone to the DLR immedietely! ***** .......and remind that light fancy tram system about this....................Which would NOT of happened had there been a driver at the pointy end.................. www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.10090To which the response would be look at all the accidents caused by the driver at the pointy end not paying attention.
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 1, 2011 9:32:17 GMT
Have you actually been to the four depots you mentioned to see how it's a "piece of cake" to make such places driverless? Of Course , been to every Depot on LUL except Morden and Cockfosters. I've also been to Burnaby, Sengkang, Ten mile Junction and Kim Chuan.
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 1, 2011 15:03:21 GMT
If it is such a totally unsafe idea, then how come RATP in Paris is currently converting Metro line 1 to a fully automatic system (to join line 14 which was automatic from opening)? Sure there will be problems to solve when introducing driverless trains to existing lines, but there are already several other fully automatic systems in operation which run above ground and potentially could suffer objects on the track (as couple of examples being the DLR, the Lille Metro). There is quite a lot of driverless public transport (excluding Airports, Park monorails) operating : Rubber tyred Morgantown PRT Lille Metro Lines 1 & 2 Rennes Metro Paris Metro Line 14 Lyon Metro Line D Lausanne M2 Line Yokohama Kanazawa Seaside Line Sengkang Punggol LRT Turin Las Vegas Monorail Taipei Neihu & Muzha Lines Miami Metromover Tokyo Nippori-Toneri Liner Osaka Nankyo Port town line Detroit Jacksonville Bukit Panjang LRT Toulouse Metro A & B lines Kobe Portliner & RokkoLiner Tokyo Yurikamome Line Steel Wheel - LIM powered Vancouver Expo line Vancouver Millenium line JFK Air Train KL Kelan Jaya Line JFK Air Train Steel Wheel Conventional Singapore NEL and CCL Barcelona Lines 9 & 11 Copenhagen Dubai Red Line Vancouver Canada Line Nuremburg U2 & U3 Line HK MTR Disneyland line There are an awful lot more planned or under Construction. It the future , Paris are now converting Line1 and have announced ambitious plans for more automated lines. It might take time, but eventually LUL will step into the 21st Century
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 1, 2011 17:25:20 GMT
Is this as part of Paris' €32 billion package to public transport in the capital?
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Post by 21146 on Feb 1, 2011 17:57:54 GMT
I have only skimmed through this topic so if this has been covered my appologies. Driverless trains???!!! What happens if there is debris on the tracks? If some kid throws something on the track? If there is somebody on the tracks? Only a driver can see this and stop the train in time or notify control of the situation. It is totally unsafe. How can anyone even consider having driverless trains? Especially on a mass transit system. You right! Get on the phone to the DLR immedietely! Well they were heavilly fined after one of their trains ran over a person on the track at All Saints (IIRC), and there was another case where someone was chased onto the track at Shadwell and hit by a train. They were also censured yet again when the first train of the day ran in ATO instead of manual and hit equipment left trackside after engineering work. The HMRI reports available on-line pertaining to the DLR's safety record/culture make very interesting reading.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 22:38:08 GMT
Of Course , been to every Depot on LUL except Morden and Cockfosters. I've also been to Burnaby, Sengkang, Ten mile Junction and Kim Chuan. Aside from the non-UK stuff, since you have visited all the LUL depots (apart from Morden and Cockfosters) you obviously know the ropes and all the pit-falls. In the interests of efficiency will you be making your proposals for driverless trains on the London Underground available to LUL soon? As a complete outsider with absolutely no real comprehension of how these things work I enjoy reading and learning from forums like these, especially when I read phrases like "piece of cake" to describe how to do something nobody else, even in a position to do so, has dared. Please enlighten me.
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 1, 2011 23:41:49 GMT
You right! Get on the phone to the DLR immedietely! They were also censured yet again when the first train of the day ran in ATO instead of manual and hit equipment left trackside after engineering work. Not correct, DLR sweeps in ATO at reduced speed, with PSA at front of the train observing the track , ready to hit the E-Stop if necessary. The mistake was that after a period of manual driving, the reduced speed was not enforced over a section that had not been swept. The purpose of the Non passenger sweep train is precisely to prevent passengers being on board if the train strickes an object left on the track after engineering hours. LUL does not sweep so it could be argued it is actually less safe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 3:56:41 GMT
Just thought though that the elephant in the room is that even if it were technically possible, a lot of people actively dont want it, and in some respects that could be the biggest challenge to surmount. Don’t you think that if LUL management could get rid of us they would? The technology is there so why don’t they use it? They’re cutting ticket office staff due to the success of Oyster against union objections, why not do the same to trains? Why are the 09s and the S stock currently being introduced not automated? The only possible reason is that the cost of conversion is so prohibitive that no politician is willing to commit to the investment, cheaper to suffer a few strikes and pay the wages. Thanks to a fickle electorate and short term-ism I have a reasonably secure job. Personally I'd go the other way, to be more like the railways of India. I'd knock 17k off a drivers salary and hire a guard for the difference. But no one would agree to that. Even if it did mean someone to have company with in the cab, someone to share risk with, and someone to be at your immediate aid. We get roughly the same as mainline drivers who work with guards, why should we get paid less for doing both jobs? London Overground still have guards, go get a job there and see if you think £17k is enough. And the guard is on the back end so we’d still be on our own on the front.
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Post by auxsetreq on Feb 2, 2011 9:59:26 GMT
. Don’t you think that if LUL management could get rid of us they would? The technology is there so why don’t they use it? They're gonna do it not 'cos the tech is there, but because Boris has a load of shares in a certain bakery. Did you know driverless, even within depot limits is *a piece of cake* You, me and the rest of us are out the door for the price of cream horn from the Greggs Singapore branch served up by a Filipino to die for. And die we will as we are all put to death by having a DLR tramette run over us when no-one is looking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 11:57:02 GMT
Oh auxsetreq you old pessimist. Actually there is one line I would just love to be made NoPO; the W&C.
Nice straight platforms just begging to have PEDs, short and simple, just a crossover at Bank and the depot at Waterloo, if they were going to install driverless anywhere that would be the perfect place and it would save me having to offload my 700 duties every time I get some.
They closed it down a few years ago to sort out the signalling, they could have done it all then but it still remains manual, it doesn’t even have ATP let alone ATO, the 92s have trip cocks.
If anyone can give me a decent suggestion why the W&C hasn’t already been made NoPO other than LUL don’t have the money I’d love to hear it.
And don’t say cos the unions wouldn’t wear it, they tried to keep the ELL and we lost that, they objected to the staff cuts and ticket office closures but those go through this Sunday, RMT even went on strike to stop PPP and in hindsight everybody admits they should have listened to them, so much for union’s trying to block change.
It’s not the unions or safety or anything else, it’s pure economics. This is the 21st century and thanks to greedy bankers I’ll be driving a train till retirement which by the time I get there will no doubt have been pushed back to 70…….
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 22:37:47 GMT
You, me and the rest of us are out the door for the price of cream horn from the Greggs Singapore branch To be fair to the gentleman from the cake shop, he has posted a list of 32 railways with, much like Sky Sports Live, "no-one at the helm" so it can be done. This isn't in dispute. The application of such practices on LUL is. It isn't the first time that pointed criticism of LULs methods, plans and practises have arrived from the keyboard of our far eastern correspondent so I would say again to him, if you have a cogent, realistic and affordable plan to implement a driverless London Underground, what is it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 9:47:59 GMT
I was going to suggest that the Jubilee line from Westminster to North Greenwich would be a good candidate for testing driverless operation due to the presence of PEDs and an emergency walkway in the tunnels. After watching the Driver's Eye View video though it seems that this emergency walkway is not allowed to be used to evacuate passengers and is for emergency services only.
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 4, 2011 1:42:51 GMT
You, me and the rest of us are out the door for the price of cream horn from the Greggs Singapore branch To be fair to the gentleman from the cake shop, he has posted a list of 32 railways with, much like Sky Sports Live, "no-one at the helm" so it can be done. This isn't in dispute. The application of such practices on LUL is. It isn't the first time that pointed criticism of LULs methods, plans and practises have arrived from the keyboard of our far eastern correspondent so I would say again to him, if you have a cogent, realistic and affordable plan to implement a driverless London Underground, what is it? For Good measure , these are those planned or under construction. Uijeongbu –Korea Macau Busan Line 4 –Korea Paris Line 1 (conversion) Singapore DTL Singapore TSL (planned) Singapore ERL (planned) Dubai Green Line Brescia Incheon Line Seoul Sin Bundang Line Milan Line 5 Rome Line C Taipei – Yellow Line Thessaloniki Sao Paulo Line 4 Budapest Line 4 Busan –Gimhae Line Helsinki (conversion) Makkah Metro Riyadh University Metro Yongin -Korea There are two reasons LUL didn't do the W&C or Victoria Line. Fear(a.k.a Risk) and lack of ambition (a.k.a unable to make buisness case).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 4, 2011 2:09:28 GMT
Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to be obfuscating a bit Sam! Understandable though, because if you did have a cost effective solution you'd loose a lot of money by making it public. If however you could do three things to start the ball rolling on full automation, what would they be? Ignoring the politicians, the unions, and assuming a reasonable but not extravegant amount of money was in the pot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 3:34:35 GMT
There are two reasons LUL didn't do the W&C or Victoria Line. Fear(a.k.a Risk) and lack of ambition (a.k.a unable to make buisness case). LUL had the ambition to introduce Oyster Cards and are now reaping the benefits some ten years later by cutting 650 staff from stations and reducing ticket office hours. Line 1 in Paris is being converted to driverless operation and will be running manual and driverless trains at the same time, by using their model what possible risk could LUL/TfL/Boris have to fear? So what does Paris have that London doesn’t? My guess is investment though if you can come up with another explanation I’d be happy to entertain it.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 4, 2011 11:58:45 GMT
Of course London can learn from Paris. There was a TV report last year showing how Line 1 was being modernised. There were no repeated weekend closures, individual platforms had PEDs insralled with trains running, whilst the other platform remained open. All this was contrasted with the Jubilee Line upgrade in London. But while we are at it, what is the retirement age for RATP drivers) (Or indeed the population as a whole in France?) The French trade unions are hardly pussy-cats too intimidated to take strike action, so what displacement terms have the Line 1 staff been offered? (and can London "learn" from that too?).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 12:26:22 GMT
Of course London can learn from Paris. There was a TV report last year showing how Line 1 was being modernised. There were no repeated weekend closures, individual platforms had PEDs insralled with trains running, whilst the other platform remained open. All this was contrasted with the Jubilee Line upgrade in London. But while we are at it, what is the retirement age for RATP drivers) (Or indeed the population as a whole in France?) The French trade unions are hardly pussy-cats too intimidated to take strike action, so what displacement terms have the Line 1 staff been offered? (and can London "learn" from that too?). The basic difference as far as I can see is money, Paris and other cities see the economic benefits of investing in public transport while in London we starve it of cash and try to squeeze as much out of it (or more accurately as many into it) for as little as possible. As far as I’ve been able to discern one of the main causes for the farrago on the Jubilee is that Tube Lines went for the cheapest option possible which also meant the most disruptive and slowest. Read more here. londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2011/02/status-of-underground-upgrades.htmlFurther down you have Mike Brown’s reply to a Tory GLA member on the question of driverless trains. He does a very good job of not saying anything that might make Boris look like an idiot.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 4, 2011 15:39:55 GMT
I read that. Thought the summary was a bit misleading though. Instead of MBs answer being a catgoric 'no' its more of a disgruntled reply of not saying yes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2011 16:02:05 GMT
I read that. Thought the summary was a bit misleading though. Instead of MBs answer being a catgoric 'no' its more of a disgruntled reply of not saying yes. Precisely, not we can’t do it, more we could do it, we wish we could do it but no one will give us the money to do it so we’re going to have to live with the RMT and ASLEF for the foreseeable future even though we have no idea how to run a railway and have lost the support of the employees but thanks to an insular management structure built up over decades we are totally safe in our jobs.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 5, 2011 17:38:25 GMT
[/quote]we have no idea how to run a railway and have lost the support of the employees but thanks to an insular management structure built up over decades we are totally safe in our jobs.[/quote][/i]
The 2010 "Speak Up" staff opinion results are pretty damning and it's not surprising these aren't being spun as "good news" on the Intranet, in On The Move and via Staff Bulletins; but rather appear to have been buried.
Remember, this is the management that assured employees that the launch of Oyster would have no affect on ticket offices or staff numbers.
Stand by for a whole series of negative stories in the media when the reality of destaffing, closed ticket offices, and unstaffed stations (yes, there will be such things) becomes apparent.
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 6, 2011 1:23:28 GMT
I read that. Thought the summary was a bit misleading though. Instead of MBs answer being a catgoric 'no' its more of a disgruntled reply of not saying yes. thanks to an insular management structure built up over decades we are totally safe in our jobs. Does the Brotherhood still have a strong influence ?
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 6, 2011 6:30:48 GMT
If however you could do three things to start the ball rolling on full automation, what would they be? Ignoring the politicians, the unions, and assuming a reasonable but not extravegant amount of money was in the pot. OK, Three things 1) Improve provisions against intrusion. This is a fundamental pre-requisite of driverless operation, the amount of intrusion and the ease with which measures can be defeated on LUL is really quite alarming . Good National Security argument could be put up for a wide range of measures . As an example doppler devices could be used in platforms and tunnel portals to detect intrusion. 2) Convert system to running as 630V Positive system with Negi as a return. This mitigates some of the risks of self detrainment. 3) Install PEDs on all straight platforms. The Victoria Line sensitive edge has proved to be a farce. What LUL should have done a long time ago if they were serious about preventing deaths from Platform train interface issues was to slowly roll out a PED installation programme. Instead there's been millions wasted on all sorts of CCTV, intercar barriers, sensitive edges and other nonsense that has been proven not to make the slightest difference to the incident rate. Cheap knee jerk half measures do not deliver results.
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