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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 10:13:05 GMT
I'd agree if we were in the 80s - not so much in the 10s. I doubt that election of either BJ or Ken will bring severe cuts.
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 17, 2011 23:27:50 GMT
I do feel though that, although Boris is being a bit of a prat and spouting some stereotypical views, the actions of Mr Crow & co can hardly help - "yes, it's the middle of a recession, yes, our company is shedding loads of staff and needs to save money, but getting quadruple pay for working bank holidays is justified!". Minor point of order - Bob Crow is RMT.....it's ASLEF that are involved in the dispute you are referring to!! I must admit though, the Unions really aren't doing us any favours at all. Except that is pretty much how the Jubilee line will be operated (and the Victoria / Central lines already are): One member of staff present for when there are problems etc., but the trains driving themselves most of the time. Sure, drivers on the Underground lines have responsibility for more passengers and possibly evacuating trains underground. But is there really a fundamental difference between driving a Jubilee train in 'manual' and the Train Captain doing the same for a DLR train; after all the signaling systems are using the same technology. I can't say I know much about the intricacies of how the DLR works, but there are undoubtedly differences. How do they account for the lack of someone at the front of the train keeping a lookout for staff on the track or keeping an eye out for obstructions, for example. What if there is a person on the track, for whatever reason, and the potential is there for a one under? As unpleasant as the experience will undoubtedly be, surely it's preferable to have a person there in place ready to act and hopefully prevent the incident from being any worse than it has to be? Say the train fails in the peak and needs to be manually driven. We all know how crowded LU trains get, so it makes sense that the person required to get that train moving is already at the front rather than having to fight through crowds of people - especially if between stations. I don't know exactly how the DLR's signalling works, but I get impression it works partially on sight like trams - LU's version involves target speeds and some fixed signalling. If we were to get all technical about it, I'm sure we'd use up the character limit for individual posts!! Boris is a buffoon. His comments are ill thought out and completely without basis. He used the Victoria line as an example; you know, the one that's been using ATO for ooohhh more than 40 years (now that is something to be proud of), and the Central.....well that's had ATO for more than a decade. Have both lines gone driverless? Of course they haven't!! I can't believe I'm about to say it, but even Christian Woolmar has come out and said Boris has got it wrong. The only reason it became newsworthy is because of the words "driverless trains" - it's a headline all day long and I cannot blame a single media outlet for running with it. Even the Evening Standard, despite it's many factual errors (ie, £10m for a single train - as if!!) actually tried to present a balanced story. I kid you not - even they could see it was a bit of a flimsy story. Am I concerned my job is at risk? Nope, not in the slightest. With all due respect to Christian Wolmar and others, there are lot of people commenting on this who know absolutely nothing about driverless trains. LUL were advised on how to do this in the 90's and it is now even more possible than before. As for 10GBP million per train , well thats what we pay in other parts of the world for our driverless trains
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 18, 2011 3:58:48 GMT
So just to clarify, because it's a small but important difference IMO, we are talking about driverless trains as in trains with absolutely no staff on?
Surely if we are talking about staffed trains, as in what the DLR has, then they cannot be truly driverless as is implied by the name cos that member of staff that must be on board and can drive the thing, right?
I want to understand exactly where we are supposed to be with this supposed all singing all dancing technology - bottom line: does it still need to have a member of staff on board or not?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 4:05:30 GMT
This rubbish about strikes, summed up quite nicely by the excellent Boris WatchI'd post more from it there but really Boris Watch has been having a wonderful time lately covering LU, highlights of late include how a rise of 60% on travelcard fares is actually "very little"; how the new vanity busses are only cared about people who don't use them (passengers being more concerned about reliability and journey times); and the Mayor's office inciting people to break the Police and Justice Act 1996 by conducting a DdOS attack on the ASLEF website.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 6:47:40 GMT
Do we really need second topic on the same subject?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 12:13:21 GMT
Didn't spot this one, sorry chaps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 21:17:25 GMT
TBTC runs elsewhere in the world with no staff on board - Skytrain in Vancover and the SRT in Toronto for example. Both are more like DLR than the Jubilee, i.e. new rapid transit systems mainly above ground or with walkways for evacuation etc. Even there they have roaming staff who can jump on trains, or walk out to them to rescue them. Seems to work just fine. If this were to happen in London, surely DLR would be the first to try it due to the similar advantages of above ground / walkways etc?
So yes, the technology can support driverless / staff less trains, but I can't see it being acceptable on the underground due to safety issues like suicides / power failiures etc.
Heathrow T5 has a driverless shuttle doesn't it from the terminal to the gates? Also didn't Gatwick have a staff-less shuttle too?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 21:27:56 GMT
TBTC runs elsewhere in the world with no staff on board - Skytrain in Vancover and the SRT in Toronto for example. Both are more like DLR than the Jubilee, i.e. new rapid transit systems mainly above ground or with walkways for evacuation etc. Even there they have roaming staff who can jump on trains, or walk out to them to rescue them. Seems to work just fine. If this were to happen in London, surely DLR would be the first to try it due to the similar advantages of above ground / walkways etc? How would it be decided when the doors should close and that it was safe for the train to start?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 21:32:50 GMT
From what I remember, its all on timers with door edge obstruction detection. Train dwells for say 20 seconds, doors chime, shut or retry if obstructed and then off it goes. Simples! No PEDs though, so that might be an issue with trying to do something similar on the Jubilee
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 21:37:36 GMT
From what I remember, its all on timers with door edge obstruction detection. In theory you could have a passnger operated button inside the train that would close the doors and start the train off before the end of the time delay to minimize dwell times like in an elevator. In practice though this would not work as passengers would abuse it and close the doors on people.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 18, 2011 23:17:02 GMT
Coming in a bit late, but on the Jubilee extension station control rooms, we can [although its forbidden] discharge traction current via the SIMS system.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 19, 2011 1:52:26 GMT
From what I remember, its all on timers with door edge obstruction detection. In theory you could have a passnger operated button inside the train that would close the doors and start the train off before the end of the time delay to minimize dwell times like in an elevator. In practice though this would not work as passengers would abuse it and close the doors on people. I'm pretty sure that modern DMUs such as those vile Pacer contraptions have "close" buttons - and they are frequently used on busy commuter routes. Arguably, it's far more dangerous to have a heavy slam door (as found on HSTs / Mk2 coaches) collide with you than an air door which can usually be pushed back with a little pressure. Anyway, on a cold morning I'd dearly love to be able to close the door I'm standing next to whilst we hang about at Whitechapel "to even out the gaps in the service"! Coming in a bit late, but on the Jubilee extension station control rooms, we can [although its forbidden] discharge traction current via the SIMS system. One would presume that you're permitted to discharge it in an emergency (e.g. if you spot someone falling onto the track)? Not doing so would, surely, leave LUL open to all sorts of scrutiny if something happened; HSE Inspector - "So, let's get this straight, there's a big red button which could have prevented Jimmy from being fried, but you threaten to sack anyone who touches it?".
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 19, 2011 2:06:31 GMT
They'd probably come back with something like 'the safety case to opperate the button hasn't been conclusively test-proved by HSE according to a TFL compatable opperational mechanism'
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 19, 2011 12:33:48 GMT
They'd probably come back with something like 'the safety case to opperate the button hasn't been conclusively test-proved by HSE according to a TFL compatable opperational mechanism' I think you've ingested a dangerous dose of bull**** - you ought to go to casualty and have your stomach pumped before you turn into a manager ;D!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 14:28:35 GMT
I'm pretty sure that modern DMUs such as those vile Pacer contraptions have "close" buttons - and they are frequently used on busy commuter routes. All they do though is close the doors, they can be reopened by a passenger until the guard closes them. The system I was proposing would have the train arrive at a station, open the doors and wait for 30 seconds then close the doors. There would however be buttons inside the train and if a passenger presses one the train doors will all close immediately and the train start. In theory this minimizes station dwell times as I said but in practice you will get people watching others running down the stairs and then pressing the button so they miss the train.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 19, 2011 17:14:48 GMT
Well most of the Jubilee is equipped with Platform Edge Doors, so that scenario wouldnt happen.
The Jubilee control rooms can do such more than "normal control rooms", but a lot of it is off limits, mainly due to "Contractual issues" with Tubelines.
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 20, 2011 12:26:32 GMT
I believe if you look at all driverless systems they either employ a scenario of manning either all trains, alternate trains, roaming between stations and trains , or a combination of these, however most have some trains running without a member of staff at some points during the day, but there are always staff around when needed, this is the same everywhere , Copenhagen, Paris, Nuremberg, Vancouver, Singapore and many others.
The pre-requisites to making driverless work are Platform intrusion detection (not necessarilly PEDs), self evacuation, on-board CCTV viewable in the OCC, and complete control of the system in the OCC. When you have these then Driverless is easily possible. For further guidance BS EN 62267:2009 can be referred.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 20, 2011 18:14:55 GMT
Well most of the Jubilee is equipped with Platform Edge Doors, Eight stations out of twenty-seven is hardly "most"
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 20, 2011 18:27:20 GMT
I was referring to the extension.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 20, 2011 18:36:31 GMT
It would need very careful rostering to ensure that there was a driver ready and waiting for each and every train that turns up at North Greenwich eastbound, and Westminster westbound - unless of course they stay on the train through the automatic section, in which case what's the point?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 21:27:10 GMT
A lot of this is driven by the great British pastime of seething about what other people earn. I've heard it time and time again in pubs about all sorts of trades, LUL Train Ops being a favourite target. I couldn't give a damn what other people earn personally (apart from footballers perhaps ) as it has no bearing on my life. Unfortunately there are a lot of very jealous people out there who do. As I've said before, Boris isn't stupid. He does a sly (and very successful by the looks of things) job of making everybody think he is, that's all. This serves him well as nobody notices what lies beneath the surface. In reality he appears to me to be a shrewd operator who's using this underswell of jealousy towards the T/Ops of LUL to his advantage. By making comments that can be misinterprated so easily engineers a predictable stand-off with the unions who also seem to believe they're dealing with a numbskull. So they go on strike and become even more unpopular with the commuters. A very bad mistake as it plays right into his hands. We've been here before in my lifetime and there was only going to be one winner then and it'll be the same again if it carries on. Some people need to get a grip before the worst occurs.
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 24, 2011 12:03:10 GMT
We have lines with ATO and a cab and lines which are driverless but with staff on board in the peaks. The Driverless lines run significantly more reliably.
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Post by 21146 on Jan 24, 2011 12:16:45 GMT
I heard that the proposed Piccadilly Line replacement stock was to be designed with a NoPO capability. On LU we already have ATO trains, trains that can have the doors opening automatically as it "docks" at stations, and trains where the doors close after an allotted time and can "re-cycle" if obstructed; though not all these features are currently enabled, if indeed they will ever be. I was also told that T/Ops, or rather some form of staff presence, would be retained on the Barons Court - Arnos Grove tunnel section. The real issue was apparently safety in depots and sidings with engineering/shunting staff having to interact with moving trains running in NoPO-mode at certain times and all the H&S cost involved in this. Of course this might all be just rumour.
PS - Whistlekiller got it spot-on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2011 10:55:07 GMT
Arrived late to this thread, sad to see the same tired old inaccuracies and ignorance on display.
Why doesn’t LUL go NoPO or why haven’t they already? Simple, there is no money and there never has been. The DfT slashed billions of TfL’s budget, we have ancient signal kit in the Circle that there are still no plans to replace, lift shafts were filled in because it was cheaper than completing the installation, here’s Boris telling everyone that driverless trains are just around the corner and some idiots believe him.
If you were building a new line from scratch it would be substantially cheaper but we are talking about converting a driver-run system, it would take years, cause massive disruption and cost billions. Until someone has the political foresight to cough up the massive investment necessary this won’t happen and with most politicians unsure about their future beyond 4-5 years unless all political parties come to an agreement on this my job is safe. Hooray for democracy and the fickle electorate!
The other cheap shot was that anyone could qualify for a TOp licence after a few weeks when it takes around 4-5 months. The ATO we have on the Central fails regularly, last week I got so tired of stopping halfway into the platform due to the rain I just knocked it into Coded Manual and drove myself because it was quicker.
Empty words, the public may believe it but we know he’s either bluffing or more likely he just doesn’t have a clue.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 25, 2011 13:28:57 GMT
Arrived late to this thread, sad to see the same tired old inaccuracies and ignorance on display. Empty words, the public may believe it but we know he’s either bluffing or more likely he just doesn’t have a clue. It was bait put out for the likes of Bob Crow, he nibbled at it and decided it was not to his liking or more likely he was told it was a trap.
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 26, 2011 6:14:13 GMT
The real issue was apparently safety in depots and sidings with engineering/shunting staff having to interact with moving trains running in NoPO-mode at certain times and all the H&S cost involved in this. Of course this might all be just rumour. Technically this can be overcome to a but would probably require some significant remodelling of some depots. Depots like Ealing Golders and Northfields where a significant portion of the service enters from Shed roads would be very difficult to operate in NoPo in a safe way , so they would need fellas to drive manually to a handover point on the shunt necks , doing the West end of Ealing would be a nightmare- I'd say it would be impossible with the current track configuration to make it NoPo. Having said that a lot of the other depots like , Ruislip, Hainault, Upminster or Neasden would be a piece of cake to make driverless.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 8:52:16 GMT
It was bait put out for the likes of Bob Crow, he nibbled at it and decided it was not to his liking or more likely he was told it was a trap. Uncle Bob did comment on Boris’s blather saying that it showed his “complete and utter contempt” for Tube staff. Interestingly this was a few days after the whole Royal Wedding strike rubbish and a day before the ES were shown a letter from Boris asking Keith Norman for a face-to-face meeting to discuss amongst other things Bank Holiday working. Mr. Norman declined the invitation as negotiations with LUL and the unions are already underway and reportedly going well so any discussion with Boris would be duplication. I suspect that ASLEF didn’t want to go near anything that didn’t include the other two unions.
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Post by auxsetreq on Jan 27, 2011 11:41:48 GMT
****Ruislip, Hainault, Upminster or Neasden would be a piece of cake to make driverless****
One reads some utter bollox on this site at times , but the above takes the biccy.....Can you imagine driverless trains shooting about all over the place at 2am as the cleaners, maintenance peeps et al dodge about all over the place. Mind you, come to think of it, it'd make a good You Tube vid. Really, you should get out more, especially to the places mentioned above. It'd enable you to see reality in this world of flying cars to hotels on the moon.......
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 29, 2011 2:30:11 GMT
****Ruislip, Hainault, Upminster or Neasden would be a piece of cake to make driverless**** One reads some utter bollox on this site at times , but the above takes the biccy.....Can you imagine driverless trains shooting about all over the place at 2am as the cleaners, maintenance peeps et al dodge about all over the place. Mind you, come to think of it, it'd make a good You Tube vid. Really, you should get out more, especially to the places mentioned above. It'd enable you to see reality in this world of flying cars to hotels on the moon....... Oh, I'm the one who is out, which is why I've worked on 5 driverless depots in the past 10 years. The above is a very well informed expert view. Unfortunately narrow minded poeple who think LUL is the world don't know what they don't know.
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Post by auxsetreq on Jan 29, 2011 10:53:41 GMT
****Ruislip, Hainault, Upminster or Neasden would be a piece of cake to make driverless**** One reads some utter bollox on this site at times , but the above takes the biccy.....Can you imagine driverless trains shooting about all over the place at 2am as the cleaners, maintenance peeps et al dodge about all over the place. Mind you, come to think of it, it'd make a good You Tube vid. Really, you should get out more, especially to the places mentioned above. It'd enable you to see reality in this world of flying cars to hotels on the moon....... Oh, I'm the one who is out, which is why I've worked on 5 driverless depots in the past 10 years. The above is a very well informed expert view. Unfortunately narrow minded poeple who think LUL is the world don't know what they don't know. Have you actually been to the four depots you mentioned to see how it's a "piece of cake" to make such places driverless?
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