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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 9:20:11 GMT
OK, the word "limited" cannot be used. Perhaps "Emergency Trains Only - Avoid If Possible"? Would those Emergency Trains have highly reflective chequered vinyls applied, along with the flashing blue lights? Perhaps. If there are places to hang the lights from, then sure. Not sure about the vinyls tho'; perhaps some hooks to hang Hi-Vis? ;D
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Post by Chris M on Oct 6, 2010 9:23:05 GMT
The brief status for each line is a good thing, when that brief status means something. "Good service", "minor delays", etc are good examples of useful statuses if used correctly (a whole other debate). "Special service" just says "different to usual" without saying in what way it is differrent.
As has been explained by staff on here previously, including I believe Colin, the line status message is a guide to passengers how their journey is going to be, not to tell staff whether the service is running to a timetable the general public are not allowed to see.
The point Watson, myself and others are trying to make is that when there is a strike on it's blatently obvious that there is going to be a "special service", tell us, the passengers, something that will help us plan our journey. If there are only enough trains to provide a 20 minute interval service on the bit of line that's open say "Very limited service between X and Y".
We don't care that there is no timetable, we want to know only the three things we always want to know: 1. Where can we get trains to? 2. What is the maximum time we're likely to have to wait for a train? 3. Once we are on the train, is our journey going to take longer than normal?
During the strike, the information given generally answered question 1 as best as you (LU/TfL) could in the circumstances. However, the "special service" message does not give any answers to questions 2 or 3.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 9:37:24 GMT
The brief status for each line is a good thing, when that brief status means something. "Good service", "minor delays", etc are good examples of useful statuses if used correctly (a whole other debate). "Special service" just says "different to usual" without saying in what way it is differrent. As has been explained by staff on here previously, including I believe Colin, the line status message is a guide to passengers how their journey is going to be, not to tell staff whether the service is running to a timetable the general public are not allowed to see. The point Watson, myself and others are trying to make is that when there is a strike on it's blatently obvious that there is going to be a "special service", tell us, the passengers, something that will help us plan our journey. If there are only enough trains to provide a 20 minute interval service on the bit of line that's open say "Very limited service between X and Y". We don't care that there is no timetable, we want to know only the three things we always want to know: 1. Where can we get trains to? 2. What is the maximum time we're likely to have to wait for a train? 3. Once we are on the train, is our journey going to take longer than normal? During the strike, the information given generally answered question 1 as best as you (LU/TfL) could in the circumstances. However, the "special service" message does not give any answers to questions 2 or 3. I couldn't put it better.
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Post by citysig on Oct 6, 2010 9:52:50 GMT
Special Timetables.
May not "exist" as far as stations and train staff are concerned, but they do "exist" for Service Control. There may not be a fully compiled, all-day written out timetable, but there is a structured plan. We don't simply chuck a train here, then throw one there.
For example, on Monday we had the mix of train operator and stock availability, station status, and higher management decisions. Based on the number of trains available, a service plan was made. In doing this, you create a realistically achievable service, that will not create false hope. There is no point telling everyone there is a service operating if it is below around 50% of what it would normally be.
All signal cabins / control rooms are informed of the plan so that the service can be regulated where needed.
The evening peak service on the Met served every single Met station, and ran at around 50% of what would normally be operated. There was a 20 minute service from Aldgate to both Northwood and Uxbridge. There was a 30 minute service from Aldgate to Amersham. There was a shuttle service operating on both the Chesham branch and between Rickmansworth and Watford (connecting into Chiltern and Met trains). The Baker Street-Harrow corridor saw combined services of 5-10 minutes. Obviously platform wait times were increased, but once on board a train the journey time was the same as normal.
Throughout the shift I was on, the service pattern remained more or less constant. Summary information was being broadcast system-wide, certainly about our service. Local information was passed to those stations that were staffed. Those stations that were unstaffed but open obviously had less information - but then it's a case of would you rather have your station open and getting some trains (even if you don't know when) or next time should we just leave the station closed and make you go to one where there is staff and thus information.
It should also be kept very high in everyone's rantings that several members of staff had chosen to take part in industrial action (I'm not about to discuss their reasons, the dispute or the rights and wrongs of it.) Those of us who were left ran what we could, and told you what we could. I have known strikes in years gone by where much less has been achieved.
The strike hasn't been hidden from the news. The next one is planned for 2nd/3rd November. If you haven't heard it anywhere else, then take it from me that unless it is called off, there will be similar disruption then.
Stations Closed Rule.
Applies only to deep-level tube lines - in their deep level sections only.
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Post by harlesden on Oct 6, 2010 11:42:20 GMT
2nd November? I'll be spending that day in Grimsby as it happens. My first ride on an Inter City (KGX-NNG only) in several years. Traveling on from NNG to GMB in some sort of DMU.
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Post by SE13 on Oct 6, 2010 13:01:24 GMT
2nd November? I'll be spending that day in Grimsby as it happens. My first ride on an Inter City (KGX-NNG only) in several years. Traveling on from NNG to GMB in some sort of DMU. Passing through Lincoln then......
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Post by harlesden on Oct 6, 2010 13:22:35 GMT
Passing through Lincoln then...... Mid morning towards Grimsby and then early evening towards Newark Northgate. So what class of DMU can I look forward to?
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Post by SE13 on Oct 6, 2010 13:55:59 GMT
Blimey, they don't serve up decent stuff here! We just get the rejects from everywhere else (same as the buses) Think they are a combination of 153's, 156's and 158's and usually single carriage.
If you haven't been through Lincoln for a couple or more years, be prepared for a shock!
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Post by littlebrute on Oct 6, 2010 14:39:41 GMT
I sincerely hope that the strikes are sorted by the one on the 28th November as me and the missus are meant to be in London for a romantic weekend to celebrate our anniversary so that would be a bit of a downer to the day!
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Post by Dmitri on Oct 6, 2010 15:33:21 GMT
If there are only enough trains to provide a 20 minute interval service on the bit of line that's open say "Very limited service between X and Y". Here in Moscow, we call it 'increased intervals'. Means that trains are not as frequent as usual, so you'll unlikely get inside .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 16:28:41 GMT
Oh come on... You don't think ... " Ooo... special edition Victoria Sponge, I'll buy that" Then start eating it to find it hasn't a butter cream filling or fruity preserve do you.
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Post by harlesden on Oct 6, 2010 16:40:51 GMT
Blimey, they don't serve up decent stuff here! We just get the rejects from everywhere else (same as the buses) Think they are a combination of 153's, 156's and 158's and usually single carriage. If you haven't been through Lincoln for a couple or more years, be prepared for a shock! Well, that's that then. Changed my outward journey to go via Doncaster and onto the Trans Pennine Express. (Class 170) Only passing through Lincoln (Class 153 or 156) on the return journey around 19:23. Done deal now - got the tickets. £25 Advance Purchase - £125.10 if bought on the day. Real reason for changing the outward journey was a £6.50 saving (£12.50 instead of £19)
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Post by setttt on Oct 6, 2010 18:08:38 GMT
Oh come on... You don't think ... " Ooo... special edition Victoria Sponge, I'll buy that" Then start eating it to find it hasn't a butter cream filling or fruity preserve do you. If only proboards had a "like" button!! ;D
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Post by Chris M on Oct 6, 2010 18:18:45 GMT
The special service on the t-cup trial weekends was being used to mean "This is different to normal, but try it and you'll like it better than what you're used to". Special this week meant "This is different to normal, we know it's rubbish and you wont like it, but it's the best we can do in the circumstances". Don't get me wrong, that's exactly the sort of service they should be running - but don't use special to mean "better than normal" and "worse than normal".
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Post by SE13 on Oct 6, 2010 18:56:22 GMT
Well, as I've said time and again here, you can only provide a service with the staff provided.
If 50% of drivers are on strike, expect a minimum of 50% of trains to be cancelled.
If 50% of station staff are on strike, expect more than 50% of stations to be shut.
It ain't rocket science.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 6, 2010 19:58:15 GMT
With the same number of train drivers available it would be possible to run a good service over a short section of line, or a very limited service over a longer section, or something in between. Any of the options are possible and justifiable, but "special service" doesn't give any information about which option has been implemented. We can't know how many members of staff of any particular grade have turned up for work[1] and so we have no way of knowing whether the "special service" operating is being run with 2 or 20 trains. Nor will the average punter know what level of service X number of trains will result in (other than "more train = better service").
[1] Other than if a station is open 'enough' staff are working and that if it is closed then 'not enough' staff are there.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 6, 2010 20:16:05 GMT
Nobody was intending to have a pop at anyone! Most of us on this forum know what a soecial service entails. We have the knowledge to work it out! The point I was trying to make is that as much as some of us hate them, "Minor Delays" and "Severe Delays" do tell the average punter something about the service level. But "Special Service" tells you precisely nothing! Somebody mentioned a Victoria sponge earlier - it's like saying "I've got a special cake,would you like to have some?" I'm sure you'd like to know what's in the cake before trying it! In the same way, passengers may want to know what service is on their underground line. What does "special" tell them - precisely nothing!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 6, 2010 21:49:08 GMT
Changed my outward journey to go via Doncaster and onto the Trans Pennine Express. (Class 170). TP only normally operates class 170s on the Manchester-Hull service - South Humberside gets Class 185s Only passing through Lincoln (Class 153 or 156) on the return journey around 19:23. Well, you'll still have the dubious delights of Newark Northgate in one direction. I prefer to go to Lincoln by changing at Peterborough: not only is Pbo a much nicer station, but I get decent legroom for longer. The new "Mallard" layout on the Mk4s is every bit as cramped as anything a Pendolino can offer. Give me a 153 or 156 any day. Why do so many modern train interiors appear to have been designed for (and by!) 12 year-olds? Real reason for changing the outward journey was a £6.50 saving (£12.50 instead of £19)) Mad pricing - costs less to go the longer route, with more InterCity element
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Post by splashdown on Oct 7, 2010 8:56:47 GMT
That's not entirely accurate. Some stations are run by more than one member of staff so if one station have five staff on strike and another only has one. It could mean they are both shut or both open depending on who else turns up. You could quite easily have 50% of staff on strike but all stations remaining open. For example the minimum number of staff to keep Archway to High Barnet open is six. Well, as I've said time and again here, you can only provide a service with the staff provided. If 50% of drivers are on strike, expect a minimum of 50% of trains to be cancelled. If 50% of station staff are on strike, expect more than 50% of stations to be shut. It ain't rocket science.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 7, 2010 9:17:53 GMT
You should give the customers more credit. Some already know that when it says good service it means severe delays and when it says severe delays it means the line is closed. Special service normally means the trains are running 'world class' as they are not using the timetable. ;D With the same number of train drivers available it would be possible to run a good service over a short section of line, or a very limited service over a longer section, or something in between. Any of the options are possible and justifiable, but "special service" doesn't give any information about which option has been implemented. We can't know how many members of staff of any particular grade have turned up for work [1] and so we have no way of knowing whether the "special service" operating is being run with 2 or 20 trains. Nor will the average punter know what level of service X number of trains will result in (other than "more train = better service"). [1] Other than if a station is open 'enough' staff are working and that if it is closed then 'not enough' staff are there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 13:23:40 GMT
That's not entirely accurate. Some stations are run by more than one member of staff so if one station have five staff on strike and another only has one. It could mean they are both shut or both open depending on who else turns up. You could quite easily have 50% of staff on strike but all stations remaining open. For example the minimum number of staff to keep Archway to High Barnet open is six. A minimum of six Station Supervisors or above, not six staff. Plus as Archway is a Section 12 station it must be a 1+1 at the very least. Never worked the Northern Line so have no idea what the minimum staffing levels are for each station, there are some open section stations that are 1+1 or even 1+2. And as I recall at least one in three members of the + staff has to be familiarised so I suppose you could have six staff at one station and none at the others but if none of them are familiarised at the other stations there would be no point sending them anywhere as they wouldn't count. Sorry it’s been a long time since I worked stations so if there are any current station staff out there who could correct me please do.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 9, 2010 4:07:16 GMT
Archway 1 ss + 1 CSA Highgate 1 ss + 1 CSA East Finchley covered by Desk DMT MHE, FYC, WF, WPK, ToTT no staff needed. High Barnet 1 CSA (Could be covered by DSM as long as they do not leave the station) Three Station rule would require at least on member of staff on one of the unstaffed station. Debatable if they would need to have S/S licence That's not entirely accurate. Some stations are run by more than one member of staff so if one station have five staff on strike and another only has one. It could mean they are both shut or both open depending on who else turns up. You could quite easily have 50% of staff on strike but all stations remaining open. For example the minimum number of staff to keep Archway to High Barnet open is six. A minimum of six Station Supervisors or above, not six staff. Plus as Archway is a Section 12 station it must be a 1+1 at the very least. Never worked the Northern Line so have no idea what the minimum staffing levels are for each station, there are some open section stations that are 1+1 or even 1+2. And as I recall at least one in three members of the + staff has to be familiarised so I suppose you could have six staff at one station and none at the others but if none of them are familiarised at the other stations there would be no point sending them anywhere as they wouldn't count. Sorry it’s been a long time since I worked stations so if there are any current station staff out there who could correct me please do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 9:44:07 GMT
Archway 1 ss + 1 CSA Highgate 1 ss + 1 CSA East Finchley covered by Desk DMT MHE, FYC, WF, WPK, ToTT no staff needed. High Barnet 1 CSA (Could be covered by DSM as long as they do not leave the station) Three Station rule would require at least on member of staff on one of the unstaffed station. Debatable if they would need to have S/S licence Wow, things have really changed since I was on stations! The DMT at East Finchley counts towards staffing levels?!? A CSA on their own at High Barnet?!?!?!? The LFEPA and HMRI would never have agreed to that back in my day and my day wasn’t really that long ago. So glad I left and went to go on the front end, if these figures are right standards haven’t dropped so much as gone into freefall. Maybe they always did things different on the Northern, I was on the Jubilee when I was a H&S Rep but I do remember Reps off the Met complaining about staffing levels and CSAs left on their own was a big issue that came up regularly.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 10, 2010 12:04:46 GMT
I don't recognise the acronym LFEPA - who are (or were?) they?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 12:13:08 GMT
I don't recognise the acronym LFEPA - who are (or were?) they? London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority. Part of the Greater London Authroity and run the London Fire Brigade.
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Post by DWS on Oct 10, 2010 12:16:34 GMT
I don't recognise the acronym LFEPA - who are (or were?) they? The London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority. LFEPA runs the London Fire Brigade.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 10, 2010 12:17:23 GMT
Thanks both of you.
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Post by memorex on Oct 11, 2010 10:43:00 GMT
Three Station rule would require at least on member of staff on one of the unstaffed station. Debatable if they would need to have S/S licence Does that apply to the non-Section 12 stations too?? On the Edgware branch on the first strike for the majority of the day, (haven't heard about the 2nd yet): Edgware - Covered by GG DMT Burnt Oak - Unstaffed Colindale - Unstaffed Hendon Central - Unstaffed Brent Cross - Unstaffed Golders Green - DMT Hampstead - DSM + CSA Belsize Park - DSM + CSA (although was closed a fair few times, and when open had no lifts in service).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2010 11:00:50 GMT
I feel like I'm running in late here, but whether it's intended by LU or not, I take the service level as a quick guide, not a confirmation of service intervals. If it's anything other than 'Good Service', I check the departure board information online (my smartphone has proved invaluable) to make a decision whether to travel on that line.
Obviously, this is only useful above ground, so service updates on the train are also helpful as a general indicator of whether the problem has resolved itself or not. I think the quibbling over 'Special Service' during a strike is a bit pointless; the circumstances mean that a special service is being provided, and chances are that your journey's going to be delayed or altered. I'm not sure how LU can predict staffing levels and all the other stuff you need to give customers any further information.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 11, 2010 12:07:57 GMT
I do not know if open section counts with the three station rule. When I have time I will try and find out. I added it mainly to give a fare view of the minimum.
The main reason for the three station rule is that in case of emergency a train can de-train its passengers to safety. This can not be done if a station is unstaffed and subsequently locked up.
Also if a train is stuck and needs assistance from station staff the time to walk would be considerable if such gaps appears.
I would say though stations like West Finchley can be unstaffed but still remain open to the public and therefore be a means of escape which would negate most arguments for open-section to adhere to the three station rule.
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