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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2010 20:32:04 GMT
Working for Royal Mail, I've been out on strike plenty of times (!). It's no fun at all, but we all have to stick together, or management would do as they like.
When First took over at Northampton Transport (buses), we had a few work to rule and overtime bans and it usually worked to stop First taking away our conditions.
Tube stations need staff in all grades - I give my support to the strikers.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Oct 4, 2010 20:50:07 GMT
I travelled from Ealing Broadway to Hammersmith and back late afternoon/early evening. Caught C stock in both directions - which seemed to confuse some travellers. I did notice a D stock in service eastbound at Hammersmith when I was coming back.
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Post by citysig on Oct 4, 2010 21:10:30 GMT
I have to go to a funeral in Brussels tomorrow morning. What is the service on the Met likely to be like as I need to do the Northwood/Harrow - St Pancras journey? Will most of the trains be in reasonable starting position? What are peoples thoughts, Met Control? Shouldn't be too bad unless you're intending to catch very first trains. Even then I cannot foresee any problems there, as most of the plan to get trains back to where they should be was worked out this evening, but never say never.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 4, 2010 21:22:48 GMT
"Special Service" - you have to laugh! Talk about putting a good spin on a bad situation!
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Post by 21146 on Oct 4, 2010 21:35:12 GMT
C Stock running Whitechapel - Ealing Broadway via Embankment (as Set 001, 002, 003 etc), later diverted E/B via the Piccadilly Fast Line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 4, 2010 21:55:13 GMT
C Stock later diverted E/B via the Piccadilly Fast Line. Was this diversion anything to do with the gauging problem at Chiswick Park reported here?
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Post by 21146 on Oct 4, 2010 22:48:03 GMT
I wondered if someone had woken up to that fact?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 5, 2010 1:00:33 GMT
"Special Service" - you have to laugh! Talk about putting a good spin on a bad situation! I had to get from Beckton to Angel, and was planning to avoid the hassle of the city by going via Stratford and Highbury only for a broken down train to suspend the NLL. The journey planner advised DLR to Bank, Northern Line to Old Street and then a bus from there as Angel station was closed. Getting to Bank wasn't a problem. Finding a place to stand on the northbound Northern Line platform wasn't as a bad as I feared it might be, but no information on the DMIs. Plenty of information about what bits of the Central Line were running, and to listen for "local announcements" regarding what stations were open and closed (which never happened). Just under 5 minutes after I arrived on the platform the first train was announced as 14 minutes away. Thinking I stood no chance of getting on that one, and no idea when the next one would be I made my way to the surface to get the 43 to Angel. The first two number 43s were advertised as turning at Old Street, so I got one that far and then squeezed on the third, getting to Angel with 10 minutes to spare, a 46 minute journey having taken an hour and 50 minutes. Waiting for the bus back home at about 11:30, four consecutive 205s (double deckers) came past completely full such that they couldn't take any more passengers - something I've not seen since the buses back from the Mumbles Mile to the university and student village in Swansea! In contrast the more frequent 56s were running empty or almost empty. Got home via the N551, an experience I'm glad I've had as I now know the state of some of the roads are so bad that travelling on it while drunk would not be fair to the driver, passengers or whomever would have to clean up the mess I made!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 5, 2010 2:18:53 GMT
Gotta love TfL - they are running 'special services' on most lines now... basically a newspeak for major delays. Nonono... "Special service" means "one step up from nothing" ;D ;D "Special Service" - you have to laugh! Talk about putting a good spin on a bad situation! We were running a made up train service - what should we have called it then? --------------------------------------------- C Stock later diverted E/B via the Piccadilly Fast Line. Was this diversion anything to do with the gauging problem at Chiswick Park reported here? You haven't actually provided a link norbitonflyer, so I'm assuming you are referring to what Aspect posted in this thread?.... If so, the answer is no. There was an incident yesterday evening whereby a C stock struck the platform and sustained damage. It may or may not be related to last Wednesday's goings on but as the matter is under investigation further speculation or comment would be inappropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2010 12:57:28 GMT
What do you mean by "made up"?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2010 13:03:00 GMT
What do you mean by "made up"? Untimetabled and largely spur-of-the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2010 13:10:40 GMT
What do you mean by "made up"? Untimetabled and largely spur-of-the moment. OK, so "Special Service" means "the occasional train when there is one". Isn't that only a bit better than "Line Suspended"? Correct me if I'm wrong/rude.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2010 13:20:51 GMT
Isn't that only a bit better than "Line Suspended"? Correct me if I'm wrong/rude. Better than nothing at all, no trains, nada, zip.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2010 13:27:01 GMT
Untimetabled and largely spur-of-the moment. OK, so "Special Service" means "the occasional train when there is one". Isn't that only a bit better than "Line Suspended"? Correct me if I'm wrong/rude. It could also mean that there's a train every ten minutes as opposed to a usual timetabled of five minutes, seven minutes, three minutes or whatever it happens to be for that stretch of line.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2010 14:53:56 GMT
I think a vague term like "Special Service" is much worse than "Major Delays", because it does not deter people from trying to use the tube - only adding to overcrowding and making the whole thing worse.
"Special Service" = "RTAIISOYHNCOGOE" (Rare Trains At Irregular Intervals So Overcrowded You Have No Chance Of Getting On Ever)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2010 14:57:54 GMT
I think a vague term like "Special Service" is much worse than "Major Delays", because it does not deter people from trying to use the tube - only adding to overcrowding and making the whole thing worse. "Special Service" = "RTAIISOYHNCOGOE" (Rare Trains At Irregular Intervals So Overcrowded You Have No Chance Of Getting On Ever) I'm afraid I have to agree.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Oct 5, 2010 16:06:48 GMT
Yeah, but you can't supply a service if the staff aren't there to man it.....
There's an obvious reason why strike action is taking place, it's widely advertised.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 5, 2010 16:49:18 GMT
A made up service is one which has no timetable - in the trade it's called an emergency timetable (even though there isn't actually a timetable!). It's a special service cos that is exactly what it is.
A decision is made, taking into account available resources, to run x number of trains between point A and point B. The running time is divided by the number of trains and that gives you a basic frequency (IIRC). On the District we had 9 C stocks doing Ealing/Whitechapel's every 15 minutes (later 10 trains giving 12 minute service), and 30 D stocks running a 5 minute Barking/Wimbledon service.
In amongst this, you have to keep in mind which stations are staffed and open - there's no point trying to run a service to stations which are closed - as well as catering for the largest majority with what you have available. There are also rule book requirements in terms of the number of consecutive stations closed which dictate whether you can run through that area in or out of service.
Every driver is spare (though books on and off as per their rostered duty on the day in question) and they are put onto trains by the duty managers as appropriate.
Now obviously the service provided wasn't as good as a normal day - quite frankly I'm astounded that anybody expected otherwise.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2010 19:00:00 GMT
You haven't actually provided a link norbitonflyer, so I'm assuming you are referring to what Aspect posted in this thread?.... Sorry, I mistyped the link. That was what I meant to refer to. ............ as the matter is under investigation further speculation or comment would be inappropriate. Understood
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Post by superteacher on Oct 5, 2010 20:18:31 GMT
A made up service is one which has no timetable - in the trade it's called an emergency timetable (even though there isn't actually a timetable!). It's a special service cos that is exactly what it is. A decision is made, taking into account available resources, to run x number of trains between point A and point B. The running time is divided by the number of trains and that gives you a basic frequency (IIRC). On the District we had 9 C stocks doing Ealing/Whitechapel's every 15 minutes (later 10 trains giving 12 minute service), and 30 D stocks running a 5 minute Barking/Wimbledon service. In amongst this, you have to keep in mind which stations are staffed and open - there's no point trying to run a service to stations which are closed - as well as catering for the largest majority with what you have available. There are also rule book requirements in terms of the number of consecutive stations closed which dictate whether you can run through that area in or out of service. Every driver is spare (though books on and off as per their rostered duty on the day in question) and they are put onto trains by the duty managers as appropriate. Now obviously the service provided wasn't as good as a normal day - quite frankly I'm astounded that anybody expected otherwise. I don't think anyone on here expected a normal service. Although I didn't need to travel by underground, I would certainly have expected a skeleton service at the very best. However, the term "Special Service" tells you absolutely nothing about the service level being provided. Maybe TFL could be honest and describe it as "Very Limited Service - Avoid if possible." That tells people in black and white what they can expect. That saves people turning up on platforms and having to wait 15 minutes for an extremely crowded train. Failing that, even "Severe Delays" which indicates to the passenger that all is not well with the service. In the past, so called "Special Services" have operated which, although different from the normal timetable, have had a frequency not too different from the normal one. Maybe the Victoria line came close yesterday, but that didn't seem to be the case on the Northern from other reports in this thread. "Special" can mean anything - another example of TFL using ambiguous terms to cover themselves under all eventualities.
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Post by version3point1 on Oct 5, 2010 20:23:38 GMT
In amongst this, you have to keep in mind which stations are staffed and open - there's no point trying to run a service to stations which are closed - as well as catering for the largest majority with what you have available. There are also rule book requirements in terms of the number of consecutive stations closed which dictate whether you can run through that area in or out of service. Do you know where I can find this in the Rule Books? We have been discussing this for about a fortnight at work – there have been over half a dozen occasions in the last two weeks where three (and more) consecutive stations have been shut on the Jubilee.
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Post by memorex on Oct 5, 2010 21:02:26 GMT
Do you know where I can find this in the Rule Books? We have been discussing this for about a fortnight at work – there have been over half a dozen occasions in the last two weeks where three (and more) consecutive stations have been shut on the Jubilee. Indeed, the Northern has had this problem, too - although no-one can seem to actually find it in the rule books?
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Post by 21146 on Oct 5, 2010 21:25:29 GMT
Does this rule apply only to deep level Tube sections?
And if one of the three stations has just one staff member on it, even though this is below minimum levels, as long as that person can point to the exit in an emergency then that's OK.
Funny how LU say the forthcoming "800" cuts will never result in any station being unstaffed during the traffic day; yet countless locations were in just that state last Monday!
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Post by Chris M on Oct 6, 2010 1:51:42 GMT
In the past, so called "Special Services" have operated which, although different from the normal timetable, have had a frequency not too different from the normal one. [...] "Special" can mean anything - another example of TFL using ambiguous terms to cover themselves under all eventualities. The t-cup trial weekends were described as a "special service" that was actually an enhancement (officially at least) on the normal service. "Special service" is also used to describe unusual service patterns in terms of destinations during engineering works that offer a similar frequency to the norm. Given that it has now been used during the stroke to denote everything from minor delays with a handful at most of station closures to a very limited service is operating between a a handful of stations, "Special service" is now as useful a descriptor of what is happening on the ground as "good service" is. The general public having been taught that TfL status messages are meaningless turn up at the station because they know that seeing for themselves is the only way they will get to know the truth about what is happening. This isn't the fault of front line staff, but it is unfortunately front line staff that will suffer the consequences (as they did the other weekend at North Greenwich) of back office staff being disconnected from reality.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 2:25:20 GMT
In amongst this, you have to keep in mind which stations are staffed and open - there's no point trying to run a service to stations which are closed - as well as catering for the largest majority with what you have available. There are also rule book requirements in terms of the number of consecutive stations closed which dictate whether you can run through that area in or out of service. Do you know where I can find this in the Rule Books? We have been discussing this for about a fortnight at work – there have been over half a dozen occasions in the last two weeks where three (and more) consecutive stations have been shut on the Jubilee. Can't find anything in the rule book either. Probably something else that has vanished without anyone knowing!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 6, 2010 2:45:26 GMT
It's threads like this that really make me wonder why any of us LU staff bother to try and explain anything. And people effectively having a pop is the last thing you want to read after a day at work, particularly a strike day. Oh well, let's have another go....
It's actually dead simple - you are on your way to work, a meeting, a job interview, etc, etc.
Do you really have time to stand at the station entrance and read long winded explanations for each line? Or would you rather have just a couple of quick words before you head to the platform?
That is the idea behind the service status messages. Granted they may not always work that well, but with 3 million journeys a day it's go to be kept sensible.
Bottom line with the special service message is that it was no lie - that is exactly what was provided and LU were completely truthful. Define it whatever way you will, but you will not prove that LU were lying. If customers haven't got the common sense to work out that the service would be reduced (come on, the strike was very well publicised), they really shouldn't be allowed out on their own.
EDIT: I have had a brief look myself to find a rulebook reference, and nope I can't come up with one either - I'll have to ask the union rep that told me when I next next see him....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 3:49:16 GMT
Nobody said LU was lying; what has been said that a more specific message could have been used, such as Superteacher's "Very Limited Service - Avoid if possible." .
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Oct 6, 2010 7:56:26 GMT
But the point is that trains aren't available due to lack of drivers. Stations aren't open due to lack of staff. No timetable to work to means that it's a special service.
It can't be a limited service because they aren't working to any sort of timetable.
Driver A turns in, and is told to take X train to location Y
Driver B turns up and is told to take Z train to location N
It's a special service.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 8:20:23 GMT
But the point is that trains aren't available due to lack of drivers. Stations aren't open due to lack of staff. No timetable to work to means that it's a special service. It can't be a limited service because they aren't working to any sort of timetable. Driver A turns in, and is told to take X train to location Y Driver B turns up and is told to take Z train to location N It's a special service. I know it's Special because the Emergency Timetable has been invoked. The problem is that just saying "Special Service" does not help the average punter very much. OK, the word "limited" cannot be used. Perhaps "Emergency Trains Only - Avoid If Possible"?
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vato
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Post by vato on Oct 6, 2010 9:15:40 GMT
OK, the word "limited" cannot be used. Perhaps "Emergency Trains Only - Avoid If Possible"? Would those Emergency Trains have highly reflective chequered vinyls applied, along with the flashing blue lights?
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