Ben
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 1:49:06 GMT
Post by Ben on Dec 29, 2009 1:49:06 GMT
Suprised this hasn't been on here already. One of the broadsheets ran a story yesterday about the location of HS2's terminus in London. Apparently its likely routing has been known for a while down to a matter of yards, and it seems as though its London terminus will be in the Euston - St Pancras gap. Presumably this will have something of an effect on London Underground?
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SE13
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 8:45:39 GMT
Post by SE13 on Dec 29, 2009 8:45:39 GMT
Given the distance (or lack of) between KX/SP and Euston I can't see that it would have any impact on LU other than larger passenger numbers at both stations.
And where exactly would they site a new terminus, there is next to no room in that area?
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Deleted
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 11:52:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2009 11:52:09 GMT
Knock down the British Library building and start again Build a second level on Euston station
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 13:04:50 GMT
Post by londonstuff on Dec 29, 2009 13:04:50 GMT
Wouldn't have thought that there was a lot of space to build new railway lines near there either, unless they're going to adapt existing ones, which would decimate the lines when being upgraded.
This is the sort of thing that you get more questions to than answers!
If it's in this location, I'd bet on them rebuilding Euston. It'd also be a good opportunity to put some of the heritage features back, such as the arch (if it can be dug out of ponds, etc) and get rid of one of the rankest stations I've ever had the misfortune of visiting!
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SE13
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 13:45:47 GMT
Post by SE13 on Dec 29, 2009 13:45:47 GMT
The last plans I heard about were to site a new terminus at Heathrow but with links to SP and Eurostar. Quite where at Heathrow I don't know if they are going to build a third runway......
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Deleted
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 13:48:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2009 13:48:49 GMT
My money is on the new route closely follwing the west side of the M1 between Rugby and London and taking over the MML goods lines from Hendon with a bit of new tunnelling between West Hampstead and the new London Terminal (by the side of St.Pancras International). A link to Heathrow would then follow the Cricklewood Junction/Brent Junction to Acton line to join up with the GWML and the HS1/HS2 Link would be a short spur in the York Way area. Anyway let's wait and see
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 16:59:52 GMT
Post by djlynch on Dec 29, 2009 16:59:52 GMT
There's more than enough room to fit in another large station between Eversholt Street and the British Library.
Even if that does come to pass, about the most I can see happening in terms of the Underground is Euston Square being relocated a few hundred yards to the east during the works to tie in the HS2 terminus to the existing Euston Underground.
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SE13
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HS2
Dec 29, 2009 19:50:02 GMT
Post by SE13 on Dec 29, 2009 19:50:02 GMT
It's going West Coast, so surely it would make better sense to have it out West with local shuttle links to all the major Central London stations. The ECML comes into KX, the Midland Lines come into SP, Northern into Euston and Western into Paddington most are busy enough, and that's without extra traffic from that line.
That said, they were talking of times from Manchester etc to Paris, so maybe it is being linked straight into either Euston or more likely SP. I think it was something like four hours they were quoting Manchester to Paris, and that isn't going to happen unless the line does run to SP. Euston means a bit of a sprint and KX is too busy anyway.
SP hop off, hop on sounds quite feasible.......
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Chris M
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HS2
Dec 30, 2009 0:23:34 GMT
Post by Chris M on Dec 30, 2009 0:23:34 GMT
Could it not be that there would be HS2 trains from Manchester - Paris via HS1 not calling at a central London terminus, and separately HS2 trains from Manchester - a London terminus. The former would presumably stop at Stratford International and/or a similarly situated station in North or Northwest London - Harrow and Wealdstone International? Watford (Junction) International? West Hampstead International?
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Deleted
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HS2
Dec 30, 2009 15:09:04 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2009 15:09:04 GMT
I can't see there being much demand for The North-Paris-The Continent direct, you would need a stop and reverse at a London Terminal to subsidise the through route. That causes a lot of hassle with domestic passengers having to go through international security, so it would have to be an express to sweeten the deal.
Looking at the area between Euston and St. Pancras, the only option would be behind the British Library, everything else would require wholesale destruction on too large a scale for it to be done without a massive planning enquiry. There's nothing wrong with Euston as a terminus, it just needs less shops, more light, no office blocks outside, and the Arch plus the Great Hall back!
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HS2
Dec 30, 2009 17:39:43 GMT
Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2009 17:39:43 GMT
Looking at the area between Euston and St. Pancras, the only option would be behind the British Library, everything else would require wholesale destruction on too large a scale for it to be done without a massive planning enquiry. There's nothing wrong with Euston as a terminus, it just needs less shops, more light, no office blocks outside, and the Arch plus the Great Hall back! The area behind the British Library is already allocated to the new UKCRMI research centre upon which work is scheduled to start in 2011. The site is also too small for a new station, accommodating full length trains, without demolition to the north. More likely would be the expansion of Euston, there is actually a fair amount of space for extra platforms already, removal of the roads accessing platforms 1-3 and 16-18, as well as the sidings between platforms 15 and 16, would give space for several more platforms and the station could possibly be expanded to the west. Euston has already lost a fair number of the shops which used to clutter up the concourse, although there are a couple of new ones near the platform access that are annoying placed. I much prefer getting a train here than at some of the 'historic' stations.
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HS2
Dec 30, 2009 17:45:31 GMT
Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2009 17:45:31 GMT
I can't see there being much demand for The North-Paris-The Continent direct, you would need a stop and reverse at a London Terminal to subsidise the through route. That causes a lot of hassle with domestic passengers having to go through international security, so it would have to be an express to sweeten the deal. Surely that will depend on the costs of flying from Birmingham and Manchester by the time any high speed line opens. There seem to be enough passengers for Eurostar to justify running the summer Saturday service from London - Avignon with no domestic passengers and I'm sure the market from Manchester / Birmingham - Paris will be larger than this. Depending on the design of units which run through it may be possible to keep passengers for internal and international destinations separate and so not have the check in delays. I see a fair number of passengers from Bruxelles - Lille using the Eurostar, even with the check in.
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Deleted
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HS2
Dec 31, 2009 5:58:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2009 5:58:50 GMT
The issue is a security one not about passports and customs as much, and unless you have check-in and sterliised terminals Eurostar becomes a high-profile soft target, essentially someone could go on the less secure domestic side and still cause havoc with the international service.
I suppose a daily or weekend service to France might work from the North, Stratford is a bad place to get off for London west of the City but if the price card factored that in demand might be OK. I am looking forward to any possible night trains to europe once the high speed links planned on the continent like TGV est get finished.
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Deleted
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HS2
Dec 31, 2009 10:12:02 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2009 10:12:02 GMT
...... unless you have check-in and sterliised terminals Eurostar becomes a high-profile soft target. I just wonder what evidence there is for such unsubstantiated views. There are plenty of "high profile" targets around the country that have remained completely unattacked since they were first built, without ridiculous "security" measures. Why is the train from London to Paris more of a target than London to Edinburgh? Why is the Channel Tunnel more of an issue than the Forth Bridge? Why are two TGVs leaving Paris, one for Brussels and one for London, required to have such completely different approaches to security?
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HS2
Dec 31, 2009 12:19:01 GMT
Post by andypurk on Dec 31, 2009 12:19:01 GMT
The issue is a security one not about passports and customs as much, and unless you have check-in and sterliised terminals Eurostar becomes a high-profile soft target, essentially someone could go on the less secure domestic side and still cause havoc with the international service. The security issue is always bought up here. There is already a soft target for attacking the tunnel (which would be the big headline grabbing target) and that is the shuttle service where there is a much less rigorous set of checks. Disrupting international services is easy, you place the bomb or whatever on the track, as happened in the recent Russian attack. Stratford is, however, a good place for getting to Canary Wharf and the other financial institutes now based in Docklands. I very much doubt we'll see any night trains, as they are gradually disappearing already on the continent, as least in the West. Admittedly, we do have the overnight Ski trains from St. Pancras - Bourg St. Maurice, but travelling ten hours, overnight, in a Eurostar seat is not my idea of fun
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HS2
Dec 31, 2009 17:41:06 GMT
Post by mikebuzz on Dec 31, 2009 17:41:06 GMT
There's not a lot of space for a new terminus except maybe between the St. P International and KX stations. Perhaps the HST station will be further north of KXSP/Euston maybe even as far north as Maiden Lane? There wouldn't be any worry about service levels beyond London if the station was east-west facing with terminal facilities and some through tracks.
Just a though...is it possible an underground HST station is being considered?
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HS2
Dec 31, 2009 19:31:54 GMT
Post by andypurk on Dec 31, 2009 19:31:54 GMT
There's not a lot of space for a new terminus except maybe between the St. P International and KX stations. Perhaps the HST station will be further north of KXSP/Euston maybe even as far north as Maiden Lane? There wouldn't be any worry about service levels beyond London if the station was east-west facing with terminal facilities and some through tracks. Just a though...is it possible an underground HST station is being considered? I have read the relevant reports and the preferred plan seems to be for Euston to be expanded to the west, with a completely new station being an option.
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SE13
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 14:28:58 GMT
Post by SE13 on Jan 2, 2010 14:28:58 GMT
Have you got a link to that?
To me, Euston will be crippled by adding more platforms, KX is overcrowded as it is, SP the same.
Is Paddington an option given that we are talking West Coast or West England/Scotland...?
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Deleted
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 16:15:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 16:15:06 GMT
Were money not an issue, I would suggest making the HS2 underground at St Pancras.
I would support having a second station at Tottenham Court Road, also underground for an interchange with the Central and Crossrail and then a stop at Heathrow. There could also be an option to have services running directly from Heathrow northbound without a stop in central London. In this way, a kind of 'giant loop' would be formed - Heathrow, TCR, StP, North/Stratford.
It also allows the possibility of running services in two service patterns in both directions: 1. The North, Heathrow, TCR, StP, Startford, Kent, various EU destinations. 2. The North, StP, TCR, Heathrow.
This means trains could terminate at any of the London stations or travel onward offering greater flexibility of service, lots of interchange possibilities and a greater number of people access to the services. Trains would not have to stop at all stations as with Eurostar services at the Kent stations on HS1.
It could facilitate HS3 with services from The West Country and South Wales to run into Heathrow and onward.
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 17:48:34 GMT
Post by andypurk on Jan 2, 2010 17:48:34 GMT
Have you got a link to that? To me, Euston will be crippled by adding more platforms, KX is overcrowded as it is, SP the same. Is Paddington an option given that we are talking West Coast or West England/Scotland...? Sorry, I can't immediately find a link to the report which mentions the expansion of Euston. The actual HS2 report won't be available until Spring and it is hard to separate fact from speculation in the various media reports. Paddington is mentioned as a possible location in the DfT document, as a way of providing links to Crossrail and Heathrow, rather than running via Heathrow. I don't see why expanding Euston will cripple it. I would foresee a similar situation to St. Pancras, where the High Speed station is separate from the platforms for the existing services. New approach tracks would be needed, but that would be the case wherever the station ends up. I would hope that the access to the Underground would be expanded, as part of the project, with connections to the Euston Square (also on the western side of Euston) The statistics (from 2007/08) for busiest of the london terminals are below (combined entries and exits) Waterloo 100 M Victoria 77 M Liverpool Street 58 M London Bridge 54 M Charing Cross 39 M Euston 29 M Paddington 29 M King's Cross 24 M King's Cross hasn't coped well with the expansion in passengers, but hopefully the new design of the station along with the extra platform will help here. There seems to be plenty of room for more people through Euston or Paddington compared to Liverpool Street or the big two southern locations.
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 18:00:31 GMT
Post by andypurk on Jan 2, 2010 18:00:31 GMT
Have you got a link to that? To me, Euston will be crippled by adding more platforms, KX is overcrowded as it is, SP the same. Is Paddington an option given that we are talking West Coast or West England/Scotland...? Sorry, I can't immediately find a link to the report which mentions the expansion of Euston. The actual HS2 report won't be available until Spring and it is hard to separate fact from speculation in the various media reports. Paddington is mentioned as a possible location in the DfT document, as a way of providing links to Crossrail and Heathrow, rather than running via Heathrow. Found the link, on the Torygraph website: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6911513/New-superstation-to-be-built-to-handle-high-speed-trains-into-London.html
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Deleted
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 19:10:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 19:10:47 GMT
The reason international travel is more high-profile as a target is because the aim of terrorism is to create as much disruption and fear as possible, and if you kill or hurt the economic activity of citizens of several states that creates a multiplier effect. It gets more coverage as well in the global media, which is what terrorists want as that is the best way to put the fear in to normal people. The shoe bomber is a good example, that was one incident that causes an inconvenience to hundreds of millions of people every year now.
If a temporary station was built up the Hampstead Road, just for the WCML, and everything else got diverted somewhere else, Euston NR could be gutted and rebuilt as a two-deck station. It isn't that busy at the moment, if the WCML was fully reserved seating on every train the station wouldn't look overcrowded at all, most of the time the place is full of people waiting to do the buffalo stampede on to the platform to get seats.
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 20:44:01 GMT
Post by andypurk on Jan 2, 2010 20:44:01 GMT
The reason international travel is more high-profile as a target is because the aim of terrorism is to create as much disruption and fear as possible, and if you kill or hurt the economic activity of citizens of several states that creates a multiplier effect. It gets more coverage as well in the global media, which is what terrorists want as that is the best way to put the fear in to normal people. The shoe bomber is a good example, that was one incident that causes an inconvenience to hundreds of millions of people every year now. Indeed, but rail is already a soft target, as the track is much easier to attack than smuggling a device on board a plane. Fully reserved won't work, as a good proportion of the services from Euston are commuter trains; it would also make a bit of a joke of the 20 minute frequency Virgin services to Manchester and Birmingham (what's the point of reservations on a turn up and go frequency). The current split of peak services is approximately 50:50 Virgin / London Midland (plus the 3 per hour London Overground) Parts of Euston are due to be rebuilt anyway, as several of the platforms are too short for the lengthened Pendolinos / 12 car London Midland trains. I don't think you'd get away with a temporary station to the north, as the station is the second busiest of the termini north of the Thames and that's a lot of people you would have to deal with.
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 21:08:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 21:08:50 GMT
I was musing over possible sites for another terminus in London and came to the conclusion that there isn't much available space to put one... Knocking down Broadgate might be better, for Broad Street Two! A nice idea, stupendously expensive.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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HS2
Jan 2, 2010 21:46:00 GMT
Post by Ben on Jan 2, 2010 21:46:00 GMT
Personally I recon the safe money is on Euston; it was down to be redeveloped anyway and it could have potentially good links with the Underground. And the rebuilt arch; what an enterance that would make!
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HS2
Mar 11, 2010 20:59:01 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 11, 2010 20:59:01 GMT
Well, the plans are published and it is indeed to be Euston, widened to the west (almost to Euston Square in fact!). The line sets out parallel to the WCML, but will enter a tunnel almost immediately which goes all the way to North Acton. From there it follows the line of the GW/GC joint line (and the Central Line) to West Ruislip, before striking across to the Chalfonts and Amersham (in tunnel after crossing the M25), and then along the GCR/Metropolitan Railway corridor as far as Brackley, although it only uses the actual GCR trackbed north of Quainton Road What would be really useful is for the North London Line, and possibly the Central and West London Lines, which all pass very close to the station box, to have interchanges there. This would give access not only to HS2 but to Crossrail and Heathrow as well, to large parts of S and SW London, and may even avoid the need for Airtrack (which because of the large number of level crossings between Barnes and Richmond, would effectively make an impenetrable barrier. From Old Oak
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metman
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HS2
Mar 11, 2010 21:51:43 GMT
Post by metman on Mar 11, 2010 21:51:43 GMT
I would to see a bit more of the old GCR track used. I think the run from Acton to Haddenham used and then use the part lifted, part mothballed line through Wotton and Akeman Street and thence to Calvert and up towords Woodford Halse.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 1:53:16 GMT
Post by Ben on Mar 12, 2010 1:53:16 GMT
Looks likely to affect the Central Line between North Acton and West Ruislip. Interestingly they make note of the width of the Chiltern Corridor north of West Ruislip; stating that there had been plans to extend the Central Line to Denham. Also the abandonment of the current single track South Ruislip - Old Oak.
Could potentially be a lot of slewing of track and total rebuilding of stations for the Central, not to mention the embankments in general. Interesting times ahead.
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Deleted
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 2:59:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2010 2:59:24 GMT
There appears to plenty of space for double track between Old Oak Common and just before South Ruislip - the Old Oak Line was built to double track originally. Between South Ruislip and West Ruislip is a pinch point where the Old Oak Line joins the Chiltern Main Line. Along with the Central Line there isn't much space for another set of double tracks (Chiltern will want to keep their line open for Birmingham, Banbury and future Oxford trains). The only options I see here are either tunnelling under the area, a viaduct over existing lines, or a massive remodelling of the area with stations re-built and other buildings knocked down to make room.
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Deleted
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 8:32:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2010 8:32:59 GMT
I'm glad to see that they are not planning to tunnel under Regent's Park and St Johns Wood. Phew
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