metman
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 8:42:00 GMT
Post by metman on Mar 12, 2010 8:42:00 GMT
Yes the Ruislip Area is very tight! There are three tracks through South Ruislip and not much room for anymore. Because of the speeds, any earthworks will be need to be long and hence take up lots of space.
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 11:28:54 GMT
Post by mikebuzz on Mar 12, 2010 11:28:54 GMT
Wasn't expecting quite as much new route north of c. Amersham. Well, the plans are published and it is indeed to be Euston, widened to the west (almost to Euston Square in fact!). The line sets out parallel to the WCML, but will enter a tunnel almost immediately which goes all the way to North Acton. From there it follows the line of the GW/GC joint line (and the Central Line) to West Ruislip, before striking across to the Chalfonts and Amersham (in tunnel after crossing the M25), and then along the GCR/Metropolitan Railway corridor as far as Brackley, although it only uses the actual GCR trackbed north of Quainton Road What would be really useful is for the North London Line, and possibly the Central and West London Lines, which all pass very close to the station box, to have interchanges there. This would give access not only to HS2 but to Crossrail and Heathrow as well, to large parts of S and SW London, and may even avoid the need for Airtrack (which because of the large number of level crossings between Barnes and Richmond, would effectively make an impenetrable barrier. From Old Oak Good summary of southern section of route. It does look like 'Willesden International' will be to Willesden Junction what Stratford International is to Stratford but with better connection and there is room for more still. The Old Oak HS2 station and adjacent Crossrail station makes sense where there is space and where the 2 meet. The old light industrial buildings in the area means putting a NLL and a CL station shouldn't be too difficult but the CL has 2 stations nearby. If a CL interchange is desirable either connect North Action to the HSR station through an intermediate NLL station or construct a new station between North and East Acton on the CL and close the existing stations either side. A WLL station could be closer if a new section of line cut across the GWML west of Mitre Bridge. Otherwise there are difficulties positioning it either side of the GWML given the junctions, or further north as this is close to Willesden Junction. I think a new NLL station might happen, with connection to North Acton CL but unless WLL services can be ramped up I don't see any new station there. There is only passing mention of a Heathrow spur or possible route change - Lord Mulwinny is looking into it (Conservative so at least some cross-party commitment). I wonder if the government is hoping to progress with HS2 and force the private sector into coughing up for what will be a difficult HSR section? I'm glad to see that they are not planning to tunnel under Regent's Park and St Johns Wood. Phew I think the geography of a north-north-west-facing terminal heading west-south-west into tunnel means they couldn't go through those areas if they wanted to! What would be interesting is to see what through connection might be made made between HS1 and HS2 around about Camden/Kings X North. I still like the idea of an east-west through station at this point, but I can't see where the space for it would be unless it was totally underground. I don't suppose Kings X North development has allowed for it. Maybe totally underground under Camden Town, but would cost a fortune. Camden Town rebuild indeed.
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Phil
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 17:44:33 GMT
Post by Phil on Mar 12, 2010 17:44:33 GMT
What would be really useful is for the North London Line, and possibly the Central and West London Lines, which all pass very close to the station box, to have interchanges there. I think not!! For HS2 to work the whole idea is a direct link London to Birmingham. Not a hope in hell of an interchange. And on that point I have a tiny sympathy with the residents of the Chilterns who will have a huge scar through the countryside (no local planning appeals allowed here) with no local benefit. That's the only rational basis for proceeding with HS2 at all. Once there is a single stop twixt London and Birmingham the business case collapses.
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 18:01:59 GMT
Post by andypurk on Mar 12, 2010 18:01:59 GMT
What would be really useful is for the North London Line, and possibly the Central and West London Lines, which all pass very close to the station box, to have interchanges there. I think not!! For HS2 to work the whole idea is a direct link London to Birmingham. Not a hope in hell of an interchange. And on that point I have a tiny sympathy with the residents of the Chilterns who will have a huge scar through the countryside (no local planning appeals allowed here) with no local benefit. That's the only rational basis for proceeding with HS2 at all. Once there is a single stop twixt London and Birmingham the business case collapses. Considering the plan has the stop at Old Oak for HS2 and this doesn't apparently affect the business case, I can see no reason why there can't be interchanges with the Central and LO built here.
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Chris M
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 19:45:16 GMT
Post by Chris M on Mar 12, 2010 19:45:16 GMT
I'd have thought that helping people get to the stations would be of benefit to the business case
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Ben
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 20:18:50 GMT
Post by Ben on Mar 12, 2010 20:18:50 GMT
Old Oak could potentially become a mega-hub with the amount of available connections within ½ mile. Central, North London, Dudding Hill, GW, WL, Bakerloo, WC, Overground, Crossrail..... Have a nice little maglev on a loop joining them like an airport; chance for massive regeneration, gentrification possibly? Wrt Ruislip and the Central line in general, the Route Engineering Study (chapter 5) gives far more detail about what is envisioned. www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/routeengineering/pdf/Chapter5.pdfRather than just repeat it all, suffice to say it will involve slewing (the central possibly moving south, chiltern taking the central alignment and HS2 chilterns' and a bit to the north), minor alignment changes, junction reconfiguration, possibly putting a few stations underground or elevated more with suitable approaches. Perhaps this could be a chance to resite Hangar Lane station (long perceived as a security risk) and build Park Royal Central line (resite the Pic station too...?). There are a LOT of transport projects along the route which if thought about could be properly integrated or atleast allowed passive provision for. One can't help but wonder about the future of the Castle Bar shuttle aswell; by this point it'll be running from West Ealing/Ealing Broadway only because of Crossrail and capacity on the relief lines, and Greenford would require massive reconfiguration. Who knows. Pretty much every bridge would need to be rebuilt, West Ruislip station would need to be totally rebuilt. Quite how Chiltern will get 4 tracks there, the Central 2 and HS2 2 with an option for another pair remains to be seen. I also question the need for a link from Heathrow towards London. People from London (will) have Crossrail, HEx, and the Pic, and possibly Airtrack so its really only people from points north that will require Heathrow, so why would a loop or spur require a delta junction (aside from opperational convienience)? Lots of questions. Fingers crossed it'll happen though.
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HS2
Mar 12, 2010 22:07:58 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 12, 2010 22:07:58 GMT
What would be really useful is for the North London Line, and possibly the Central and West London Lines, which all pass very close to the station box, to have interchanges there. I think not!! For HS2 to work the whole idea is a direct link London to Birmingham. Not a hope in hell of an interchange. I think so! The clue is in the words " station box"! OOC is included primarily to provide the connection to Heathrow. My thoughts for the West London Line are that it could reach the NLL station I suggested using the route soon to be followed by the "Parliamentary" Wandsworth Rd - Ealing Bdwy service. This would mean not stopping at Willesden Junction (unless low level platforms were provided where the line is next to the WCML,) but you would still have connectoin with the NLL of course. YOu could even extend it to Heathrow and hacve a Clapham Junction -Heathrow service at much less cost than Airtrack. Someone suggested a new Central Line station to replace North and East Acton. East Acton is some distance away, (and most of its hinterland even further) and its quite a long way fro the next station east (White City), so I would keep it. If the c100 miles London-Birmingham distance is seen as about right, the next station on the eastern fork should be Sheffield - sorry about that, Nottingham! Assuming stations can be a bit closer together, we could have one near E Midlands Airport, one at Sheffield, and then - radical idea - a delta junction in the Penistone area, equidistant from Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester, and forget the western branch from Birmingham. This would also provide the badly-needed improvement in trans-Pennine connections - in fact, I'd do the Man/Leeds/ Sheff triangle first, before hooking up to HS2. Crossing the Dark Peak? A Swiss style Woodhead "base" tunnel need only be 10-15 miles if the green lobby won't let the line use the original route through Longendale. I noticed in the press people were moaning about having to transfer between Euston and St Pancras to change from HS1 to HS2. They are closer together than any two terminals at Heathrow (even 1 and 3) or at Gatwick. Indeed the entrance to Euston is nearer St Pancras' entrance than some parts of St Pancras itself are - it could be quicker to get from the Thameslink station at St P to the Circle Line station by changing at Farringdon than by walking. (Why not rename Euston "St Pancras West Terminal" - and Kings Cross as "St Pancras East Terminal!: Caley Rd & B could be the North Terminal)
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HS2
Mar 14, 2010 10:40:50 GMT
Post by singaporesam on Mar 14, 2010 10:40:50 GMT
What is really quite shocking is that the cost of the captive rolling stock is 3 times more than Chinese Zefiro 380 and the classic is 4 times !!
No wonder there is a struggle to make the cost benefit analysis work. The sooner UK engineer's stop listening to imperial college professors telling them to look at japan and start paying attention to the high speed building in china , the better.
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Deleted
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HS2
Mar 15, 2010 14:15:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2010 14:15:22 GMT
Someone suggested a new Central Line station to replace North and East Acton. East Acton is some distance away, (and most of its hinterland even further) and its quite a long way fro the next station east (White City), so I would keep it. I'd like to see as big an interchange as possible, with as many lines connected as feasible. I think this would radicalise the tube network in West London as well as providing travellers with multiple options for onward journeys from HS2. - Central Line has no current interchange at OOC. The curve on the line might mean that a new station might not be possible, but maybe travellators might make it feasible. If it is, then you'd have to question whether the Ealing Broadway branch needed to be kept considering that Crossrail would go there as well...
- NLL/WLL have pretty tight curves at Kensal Green. I wonder what the cost of straightening these curves and providing platforms on them would be..
- WCML/Bakerloo - although Willesden Junction is a little far from the station box, there'd be undoubted benefits to the local community if a decent interchange could be provided between the local lines (DC Line, Bakerloo, Central, NLL, WLL, Crossrail). This would probably have to be done with travellators as well.
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Deleted
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HS2
Mar 15, 2010 19:41:03 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2010 19:41:03 GMT
- Central Line has no current interchange at OOC. The curve on the line might mean that a new station might not be possible, but maybe travellators might make it feasible. If it is, then you'd have to question whether the Ealing Broadway branch needed to be kept considering that Crossrail would go there as well...
But you would lose West Acton if you closed that branch of the Central Line.
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Deleted
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HS2
Mar 16, 2010 9:53:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 9:53:24 GMT
Yes, you'd lose West Acton.
Big deal. You'd hardly have a very long walk to the nearest other stations
Of course, you could potentially make the Ealing Broadway branch more marketable by extending it over the Castle Bar branch to Greenford. That'd save NR having to bother with it!
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Ben
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HS2
Mar 16, 2010 11:48:26 GMT
Post by Ben on Mar 16, 2010 11:48:26 GMT
+1 for that. Ealing Broadway and now Greenford are due for massive redevelopment, the line will be a fairly unattractive shuttle once Crossrail goes through, and there wont be any through traffic atall once HS2 goes ahead.
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HS2
Mar 17, 2010 23:33:43 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 17, 2010 23:33:43 GMT
Yes, you'd lose West Acton. Of course, you could potentially make the Ealing Broadway branch more marketable by extending it over the Castle Bar branch to Greenford. That'd save NR having to bother with it! It would also make the Central Line look (almost) symmetrical - Hainault Loop in the east, and Ealing Loop in the west! Another way of keeping W Acton (and bearing in mind that the nearest alternative staion, North Ealing, serves only the Picc and therefore isn't a suitable alternative for many journeys): Crossrail stopping services (or Padd locals) could be diverted via North and West Acton: since HS2 will not emerge from its tunnel until west of the Central Line's divergence there would be room for a NR line above it, re-engineering the existing flying junction to suit.
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HS2
Apr 5, 2010 17:18:55 GMT
Post by rogere on Apr 5, 2010 17:18:55 GMT
I thought I was annoyed about the preferred route 2 ruining part of the Chilterns.
However having just seen the alternative route 2.5 plan. Now I am hoping for route 2 to be adopted.
Reason? I have become a NIMBY. In my case literally. The viaduct carrying the proposed route 2.5 over Hughenden Valley goes right over the top of my house!
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HS2
Apr 5, 2010 18:37:19 GMT
Post by thc on Apr 5, 2010 18:37:19 GMT
I hear you rogere, although my issue is with the preferred route - it runs at the bottom of the road in Wendover on which I have just bought my new house! :-(
THC
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Deleted
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HS2
Apr 5, 2010 19:10:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 19:10:15 GMT
I thought I was annoyed about the preferred route 2 ruining part of the Chilterns. However having just seen the alternative route 2.5 plan. Now I am hoping for route 2 to be adopted. I have only seen the plans for "route 2"? What's the difference between route 2 and route 2.5?
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Deleted
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HS2
Apr 5, 2010 22:30:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 22:30:08 GMT
I thought I was annoyed about the preferred route 2 ruining part of the Chilterns. However having just seen the alternative route 2.5 plan. Now I am hoping for route 2 to be adopted. I have only seen the plans for "route 2"? What's the difference between route 2 and route 2.5? You can see it in Chapter 6 of the main report here: www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/routeengineering/pdf/chapter6.pdf
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HS2
Apr 6, 2010 9:56:51 GMT
Post by rogere on Apr 6, 2010 9:56:51 GMT
thc
Personally I would rather have route 1 (the WCML route), but realistically, if it goes ahead, it will be almost certainbly be either 2 or 2.5.
One of the main reasons for the HS2, that Adonis kept banging-on about, is to cut the number of people flying. How many people actually fly from Birmingham, or Manchester to London? Enough to justify expenditure on a multi billion rail system that will need to be more expensive to use than flying to recoup the expenditure?
I doubt it.
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Phil
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HS2
Apr 6, 2010 11:15:47 GMT
Post by Phil on Apr 6, 2010 11:15:47 GMT
How many people actually fly from Birmingham, or Manchester to London? Enough to justify expenditure on a multi billion rail system that will need to be more expensive to use than flying to recoup the expenditure? Manchester to London - yes! Despite the current timetable being responsible for something like a 60% drop in Manchester-London flights, there are still several a day. And in the longer term the target is obviously Edinburgh/Glasgow-London where there is a huge market to be tapped.
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Deleted
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HS2
Apr 6, 2010 14:54:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 14:54:34 GMT
How many people actually fly from Birmingham, or Manchester to London? Enough to justify expenditure on a multi billion rail system that will need to be more expensive to use than flying to recoup the expenditure? Manchester to London - yes! Despite the current timetable being responsible for something like a 60% drop in Manchester-London flights, there are still several a day. And in the longer term the target is obviously Edinburgh/Glasgow-London where there is a huge market to be tapped. In my opinion, both ATOC and the DfT have shot themselves in the foot with the current heady levels of rail fares. Until both rail fares and journey times are drastically reduced, (and that surely cannot happen until HS2 has been paid for?), domestic flights will be much more favourable.
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Phil
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RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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HS2
Apr 6, 2010 22:06:47 GMT
Post by Phil on Apr 6, 2010 22:06:47 GMT
domestic flights will be much more favourable. Not if you're going city centre to city centre. Timings for rail still win here, if not costs. Having said that, I've no idea whether advance train tickets beat air on price - they may well do.........
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Chris M
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HS2
Apr 6, 2010 23:45:43 GMT
Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2010 23:45:43 GMT
After less than 5 minutes searching for a one-way London to Edinburgh journey, prices for both train and plane vary between about £25 and about £250 depending on class and time of travel. Arriving for a 10am meeting in Edinburgh city centre, the plane wins hands down though (£37 from City Airport vs £173 from Kings Cross).
The price for the plane includes taxes but excludes any luggage fees. Both exclude any booking and credit card fees.
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