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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 8:08:48 GMT
Hi, He could do either. It was entirely up to him
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 12:01:43 GMT
Thanks Ian. I thought it would have been in his training to have to do one or the other but not being left up to the driver to decide. I'm just thinking if we can simulate this setup for the Standard Stock.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 12:59:39 GMT
I would say you must key out when stopped to cut the chances of you engaging power by mistake.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 13:01:49 GMT
Another thing I meant to say: When you have notched up to full parallel moving the master controller back to mid (full series) makes no difference. The contactors are latched until the controller moves back to 'off'. So going form full parallel, back to full series and then back to full parallel would not give any contactor sounds
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Post by mowat on May 13, 2010 15:06:08 GMT
I believe (and will stand corrected if wrong) that on the two handled stock, for the driver to release pressure on the deadman, the reverser needed to be in the off position. If it was not, and the driver 'let go' whilst the train was standing at a station for example, the emergency brakes would come on.
This also meant coasting downhill was also possible i.e. put reverser key to off, let go of deadman and...
Would it be possible to do the control graphics like this in railworks i.e. when the reverser is set to off, the master controller is up, and when its set in F or R the deadman is down?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 15:18:27 GMT
Hi,
Yes that is right. The Deadmans handle can only be released without venting the brake pipe, when the reverser key is in the cental 'off' position
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 15:22:36 GMT
I am sad arnt I, being able to say I have one of the BTH Master controllers at home lol
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 16:43:04 GMT
Sad more like lucky And yes, we are trying to get this working in RailWorks. I've got my good friend DrJimi on the case as chief scripter to see if it's possible. I believe the animation of the lever going down first then rotating is certainly possible in my modelling program.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 20:38:14 GMT
Fantastic Is it possible to make the compressor run more often? We will achieve perfection at this rate
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Post by mowat on May 13, 2010 21:33:17 GMT
Fantastic Is it possible to make the compressor run more often? We will achieve perfection at this rate That is a good point, the compressor should be running very frequently. Also at the moment, the motor sound continues even when coasting and braking, which is not correct. Can anything be done to stop that?
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DrJimi
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Post by DrJimi on May 14, 2010 0:44:39 GMT
Over the last 2 months Darren and I have been adding significant realism to the team's D78 in terms of accurate performance, controls behavior, traction system including RPA operation, Rheo/EP braking and all of the train's sounds. Some of that time was spent working out how to implement the features and all the sounds as realistically as possible. Part of the solution is an 800 line LUA script I developed that models the traction control systems in detail. What we learned and the methods we devised to implement features are now starting to be applied as revisions to the next updates to the Standard Stock, as appropriate to the stock's 'technology' and equipment. I believe you'll see and hear noticeable differences in the next SS version, to complement Darren and Richard's superb graphics and modeling. As always, our goal is to approach "suspension of disbelief" and we are eternally grateful to the subject matter experts that provide us with the detailed information that enable us to do it.
Best, Jimi
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 7:09:33 GMT
Well said Jimi.
We can make the compressor run as often as it should need by telling RW the correct size of reservoir, air used at each brake application and recharge start and stop pressures. If you have this information to hand it cuts out all the guess work and RW will run the compressor as often as it needs, just like the real thing.
The motor sounds can indeed be cut at coasting and braking, that's an easy one. Someone also noted the arc flashes on UKTS which I think I may adjust on the next release.
The Standard Stock was our first foray into the RS/RW Blueprints system and was very much a test bed for what it can do. As we find out more functionality and RW updates it's core program we are able to add more features.
BTW Thanks for all the constructive critisism, this really helps to make an acurate model and the perfection we demand.
Edit: Did the Standard Stock or 485's have tripcocks fitted.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 8:38:00 GMT
Hi, The standard stock had tripcocks, but this was removed during the refit before coming to the IOW
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 8:40:01 GMT
Also if the compressor was set to say run once every 4 minutes it would be about right. The coaches were pretty 'leaky' and the compressor cut in fairly frequently. Opening and closing the doors was often enough to make it start up. Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 11:01:42 GMT
Also ( And I am sooo sorry to keep asking more and more) Would it be possible to have an EP Brake version too?
Thanks so much
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 12:44:14 GMT
I know RW has an E.P blueprint for the braking system, it's just wether we can get it working or not. We'll try.
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DrJimi
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Post by DrJimi on May 14, 2010 14:43:34 GMT
I'm sure we can do it with some expert guidance. The RW EP blueprint is where we define a lot of generic stuff, including pressure ranges, compressor behavior, etc. Beyond that we have a pre-defined selection of brake 'notch' definitions that in the right combinations can define exactly how the brake control behaves. So we can model the D78's Westcode, or a Windyhouse or various types of EP. Ian - can you describe the function of each brake handle notch? From that we can translate into RW's notch definitions. If you also have knowledge of nominal pressure ranges and related info we can get those right too. An Darren notes, once we know the right pressure ranges we can also get the compressor to behave as it should (res capacity, start/stop pressures, compressor psi/minute, etc.).
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 15:14:19 GMT
Sure
1 Release. 2 Hold EP 3 Application EP 4 Lap Westinghouse 5 Application Westinghouse 6 Emergency.. EP and Full Westinghouse
Compressor cuts in at 75psi and out at 95psi
So to apply EP brakes you move the handle to position 3 to achieve the desired brake application, then back to position to hold the brake application. you can then alternate between release, hold and application to achieve the breaking effect desired.
As a guide 0 to max brake cylinder pressure in EP would take about 4 seconds. Maximum cylinder pressure was around 55psi.
So when using westinghouse brakes nothing happens until the handle is half way round.
Would it be possible to have a simple Ryde to Shanklin to Ryde Scenario created too? Am dying to have a go at driving form Sandown to Shanklin, which at present you can't.
I hope this helps
Ian
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Post by CSLR on May 14, 2010 16:51:58 GMT
Did the driver have to release the deadmans when stopped at any station or did he hold it down all the time and just wait for the guards signal. As has been said, the motorman (note: no 'drivers' in those days) was free to choose. I was not sure what I did until I sat down and took a trip back in my mind and re-lived a ride through a few stations. For what it is worth, it went something like this:- Wait for sound of the doors closing. When that is heard... - Deadman down - Reverser key forward - Hand onto brake Wait for bell. When it is heard... - Brake off - Open controller After stopping, leave a bit of brake on... - Reverser key to off position - Release deadman Repeat sequence I am pretty sure that I sometimes kept the handle down off-peak at stations when stops were short. I also kept it down at signals if I thought they would clear quickly. If I did centre the key at a signal, I would depress the deadman and push the key forward when I heard the air from the trainstop, as this would prompt me before the aspect changed. BUT, other motormen would have done it differently.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 6:59:45 GMT
Thanks for the replies. We now have a clear picture of what the motorman could do and like you said CSLR, the choice of what you want to do with the handle will also be up to you in RailWorks, hopefully. Ian, when we get somewhere near the completed, updated Standard Stock, we'll include you on the beta tester list with a scenario created from Ryde to Shanklin. With your knowledge of the Standard Stock, you will make a perfect critique for us.
Jimi, after listening to Ian's videos (seeing as we have no motor noise under coasting and braking), I'll see if I can get some braking rumble off the video to apply when the brakes are applied. I noticed pulling into Brading, this is clearly audible. Darren.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 13:24:17 GMT
Hi, That sounds great. It would be a pleasure to beta test the programme.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 13:17:36 GMT
Did the Standard Stock have an MA and where was it, I can't here any on the videos or was it just that quiet. ( I would presume all stocks of that period had one for the LV supply.) If not how did they get their LV supply. I've included one on our release but is it correct.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 14:44:42 GMT
Ooooh no. Everything was line voltage!!!! The only exception was the ep batttery at 50v, charged via resistances and a diode. When stopped and the compressor was not running the only sound was escaping air! Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 7:55:40 GMT
Thanks Ian, another sound to remove. A point on the deadmans, what actually happened if you did lift off while the train was motoring and how was the emergency brake reset.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 14:44:44 GMT
If you lift off the deadman, the motor contactors immediately dropped out and the brake pipe was vented. The only way to stop the brake pipe venting was to return the controller to the off position, and then press it back down. There is no way of pressing it back down once released in anything but the motor power off position.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 7:45:11 GMT
Thanks Ian Due to animation restrictions in RW it looks like we will only be able to simulate lift off after the off position. This will still vent the pipe if motoring. The reverser would then have to be moved to the neutral position before being able to push the handle back down and re-motor.
Darren.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 7:55:48 GMT
Sounds good to me. I don't know how clever RW is fault wise? But on the standard stock you had to shut off power when crossing large rail gaps, ie foot crossings. If you did not the main motor circuit breakers would trip with a massive 'bang' sound. It was normal practice to shut off just before the crossing, and notch back up to full series straight away, then once the rear motor coach was clear of the crossing, notch back up to full parallel. You can hear where this was done on my video.
You then had to operate the motor circuit breakers reset switch situated over the driver left shoulder. The black box with the 'centered' lever inderneith it. pushing it one way was cd set and the other cdb trip.
Just an idea.....
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 12:57:11 GMT
When you say large gaps, I take it you mean shoes on both bogies came out of contact with the third rail ( I bet that caused a massive arc ). If we can place track objects that interact with the engine and script controls this is definately possible. I can do an animation in the cab for the CB lever moving for the trip and reset function. Would be great to simulate a massive bang then lose all power. Did the motorman just reach over his shoulder whilst coasting to reset or did you have to put the throttle back to off and stop before attempting it.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 13:54:18 GMT
Hi,
Yes large gaps. Examples are the crossings between St Johns and Smallbrook junction, Just before Brading station (both ends of the platform at Brading), just after Sandown climbing up to the passenger crossing on the way to Lake. After Lake the passenger crossing on the way to Shanklin. All other crossings could be 'jumped' if going at a decent speed whilst notched into full parallel.
To reset the motor breakers you had to shut off power on the master controller, then push the circuit breaker trip/set lever over to the reset position. This produced a lovely flash at the top of the switch (as the contacts were as good as open!!) You could then put traction on again. When you blew the circuit breakers only the one power car would loose traction, so you could keep going, with say the rear motor coach pushing you along, just pretty slowly (or the front dragging the rear motor coach)
When the motor breakers were in a blown state the contactors in the affected motor coach would still operate, notching up really quickly to series and if selected, full parallel.
Another point is that the standard stock did not roll very well, so on most occasions you did not even need the brakes on whilst in stations. The stock had white metal axle bearings, rather than the more modern roller bearings. You can also notice this on my video when approaching Sandown. After the points the driver has to notch back up to full series to keep the train rolling as far as the station.
I really am a standard stock nerd eh!!
Hope this helps
Ian
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DrJimi
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Post by DrJimi on May 19, 2010 19:46:26 GMT
Ian, any and all anecdotal data is invaluable - we're detail oriented guys and will implement all we can! RW does facilitate defining things like aero resistance and rolling resistance, so we can certainly add some 'drag' to the wheel bearings. One detail I can't find online is car weights. I've assumed for now the DM (and CT?) are about 29-30t and the trailers about 19-20t (this including about a 55% passenger loading). Is that close? Weight is key to getting the accel/braking/etc. realistic. Right now we're getting about 1.1m/s^2 accel from rest and -1.4 braking in emergency. About 27mph at the 6-car mark in parallel from rest.
Thanks and regards, Jimi
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