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Post by happybunny on Jan 9, 2009 18:35:23 GMT
A ghost bus service. It runs every *sorry* tuesday, it costs the tax payer £500 a day! It connects two stations, and at said stations staff have no idea it exists. It turns up, leaves empty, and arrives at its destination empty. It is dubbed the 'Ealing ghost bus' . As you may remember, a popular cross-London service operated by Cross Country was discontinued last year. It was the service from the north, to Brighton, via Reading, the GWML tracks and Kensington Olympia. Before it was operated by Virgin trains, but when Cross Country won the contract it was announced they were stopping it! The service was unique, the only service to connect north-west England to destinations south of London and the East coast. It had a lot of potential, but the money-grabbing Arriva group scrapped it ! Anyway, it appears that before the new timetable came into force in December, a regular user of the service complained to the DfT that there had been no consultation on the scrapping of this service. Apparently, it is compulsory that a consultation is carried out before any rail link/route service is scrapped. They didn't bother... so they were forced to put in a rail replacement bus service. The service runs from Ealing Broadway to Wandsworth Road station, the section of the route that is not able to be completed by any other train provider directly. So the idea is where normally passengers would board at Manchester or Birmingham, and travel on that train to Brighton, instead they get off at Reading, take another train to Ealing Broadway, take the rail replacement bus service to Wandsworth road, then continue to Brigton (with another change). So technically, even though they have scrapped a route without ANY public consultation, they get away with it by providing this ridiculous bus service! The station staff do not even know it exists. The driver is told not to expect ANY passengers, but must complete the route in full.... is this the way for TOC's to scrap routes they don't want to run, and put on a measly bus? www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5462099.ece |
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Post by suncloud on Jan 9, 2009 18:59:40 GMT
Who 'runs' this rail replacement bus? Arriva or the DfT or someone else? I can't imagine Arriva being happy paying to replace a replacement bus service for a routhe they were told they could abandon...
If DfT run it i can see why its not made NR's website...
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Post by upfast on Jan 9, 2009 19:11:00 GMT
Who 'runs' this rail replacement bus? Arriva or the DfT or someone else? I can't imagine Arriva being happy paying to replace a replacement bus service for a routhe they were told they could abandon... If DfT run it i can see why its not made NR's website... It is contracted by the DfT. (Though I do have an inkling that an Arriva company run the coach!). I wonder what is cheaper; to keep running this once a week coach, or to have a consultation [to close it]? Also, if it was run as a train service (which may not have made the news), how much would it have cost, compared to a coach (when things like road training are taken into account)? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 19:45:40 GMT
Now that quite possibly a large number of folk know it now exists, perhaps we should all go out and use it to prove its viability, and thus up its ride-ability stats! ;D
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Post by happybunny on Jan 9, 2009 19:48:23 GMT
I am going on Tuesday morning to catch it at Ealing Bdy... anyone wants to join me feel free  I think it would be pretty cool have a mini-forum meet on this coach... the ticket is £5.10 (according to that website) which figures, as that is the standard price for the train ticket at that time. |
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Post by suncloud on Jan 9, 2009 20:08:07 GMT
That is what you need to buy, as it's a "train" service... not a bus...
And why does it run to wandsworth road. The train service ran through to Clapham...
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 9, 2009 22:36:09 GMT
That is what you need to buy, as it's a "train" service... not a bus... And why does it run to wandsworth road. The train service ran through to Clapham... Wandsworth Road is,for the northbound trains,the last station the service passes through before leaving "ordinary" (regularly served) lines at Factory Junction (just north of the station there). What baffles me is,why Ealing Broadway is the other station served intead of (or additional to) Kensington Olympia where the XCountry trains DID make a stop.This connection seems to have been lost,without even a bus service! These services used a couple of unusual routings on their way across London.Gensheet,in their site,said that they were routed via Latchmere Main Jct-Longhedge Jct-Factory Jct on Saturdays in order for this section to be regarded as a passenger line,but the sections Poplar lines-Acton Wells Jct and through the Low Level NLL-WLL (or via Mitre Bridge Jct.) were,as far as I know,also only served by these services,so their withdrawal will affect these lines,too. Does this mean that another service will take over some of these lines to keep the passenger designation valid? Who makes this designation,and for the benefit of whom? Are such lines subject to more stringent safety standards? Does withdrawal of the only services over these lines mean that a "Closure to Passenger Traffic" order has to be made? Is that what they are trying to avoid with their "Ghost Bus"? |
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 9, 2009 22:47:26 GMT
Ah.I've just read the article ALL THE WAY THROUGH and it answers most of my questions (Doh!)
This was a nice little service...Pretty much unadvertised in the London area,it seemed well patronised when I took it from East Croydon to Kensington a couple of times.
The lines exclusive to this route are all well utilised by freight traffic,but I agree that it sets a poor precedent for other,more vulnerable lines.
How the hell did they get the contract if they were going to withdraw this service?
Or,equally,how could they withdraw this service,if they accepted the contract to operate it??
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Post by cetacean on Jan 9, 2009 22:57:55 GMT
As you may remember, a popular cross-London service operated by Cross Country was discontinued last year. It was emphatically not popular, at least compared to Cross Country's other routes. It would be a much bigger scandal to have kept these trains running relatively empty at a cost of thousands, possibly *millions* to the taxpayer, when other Cross Country routes are full and standing due to lack of stock. The DfT decided to stop the service *before* a franchisee was chosen. Bidders were asked how much extra subsidy they though they would need to continue running it. Obviously the bids were too high, as the DfT declined to provide the subsidy, and hence no service. Pretty much everything TOCs do these days (stock allocation, ordering, timetabling, routes, etc) is at the behest of the DfT. Wandsworth Road is,for the northbound trains,the last station the service passes through before leaving "ordinary" (regularly served) lines at Factory Junction (just north of the station there). What baffles me is,why Ealing Broadway is the other station served intead of (or additional to) Kensington Olympia where the XCountry trains DID make a stop.This connection seems to have been lost,without even a bus service! These services used a couple of unusual routings on their way across London.Gensheet,in their site,said that they were routed via Latchmere Main Jct-Longhedge Jct-Factory Jct on Saturdays in order for this section to be regarded as a passenger line,but the sections Poplar lines-Acton Wells Jct and through the Low Level NLL-WLL were,as far as I know,also only served by these services,so their withdrawal will affect these lines,too. The bus calls at Kensington Olympia. The Ealing-Kensington section covers the Poplar lines and the Kensington-Wandsworth Road section covers the Saturday route via Herne Hill. It's the entire point of the bus. It's a "temporary" replacement for a hypothetical train service covering the sections in question. Ergo, legally, nothing has closed. Several orders of magnitude more. |
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Post by suncloud on Jan 9, 2009 22:58:07 GMT
The franchise agreement AIUI gave the franchise holder the option to end the service to Brighton. An option that Arriva took the DfT up on (to be fair other bidders would probably have done the same). It makes sense to save costs of operating remote crew bases and longer journeys and the risk of delays when travelling through London and different operators areas, and enable to enhance capacity and improve reliability on the 'core' network.
Did the Northbound services go via the lines at Wandsworth Road... I assumed as I've on occasion seeing XC trains passing through Clapham, I assumed they all did...
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 9, 2009 23:24:04 GMT
Did the Northbound services go via the lines at Wandsworth Road... I assumed as I've on occasion seeing XC trains passing through Clapham, I assumed they all did... Are we talking Clapham Jct or Clapham (High St) here? The SO 10:03 East Croydon departure was booked via Factory Jct (ie Wandsworth Rd and Clapham HS) (though when I tried it,it got as far as Herne Hill,told us it was being diverted,reversed to Crystal Palace,then went on via Clapham Jct). A Southbound train,also SO,left Olympia at 11:56 via Factory Jct. Most other trains went via Clapham Jct,but did not stop,as the operators didn't like the tight curves on plats 16/17. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 9, 2009 23:47:32 GMT
I agree that a lot of people probably draw quick conclusions - "OMG stupid profiteering companies" and suchlike - however, I'm sure the resources are being better used elsewhere.
The costs of running a train must be far more than a coach. A train for starters requires two members of staff to run, who will be on far better pay and conditions than a bus driver, require higher purchase costs, fuel etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 9:33:52 GMT
The costs of running a train must be far more than a coach. A train for starters requires two members of staff to run, who will be on far better pay and conditions than a bus driver, require higher purchase costs, fuel etc. If you advertise a train, it will be used. Ergo, revenue will come in. If you don't advertise it, it won't be used and so revenue won't come in. The same concept applies to this bus service. Besides, due the wonders of ORCATS, no money ever goes towards payment of this bus service as it's not operated by a body associated with ATOC. |
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Post by suncloud on Jan 10, 2009 11:35:41 GMT
Thanks slugabed.. I did indeed mean Clapham Junction. It just makes me laugh that it has to run to Wandsworth Road because it went through it twice a week... Anyone using the old XC service would really want Clapham Junction, for connections to Gatwick and Brighton. Did it even call anywhere between Kensington Olympia and East Croydon on the Herne Hill journeys.
DfT have certainly shot themselves in the foot here, having to run a bus service for which they won't get any money from. What's the reckoning a requirement for a 'parliamentary' train service will get shoehorned into the next franchise agreement they can (is it too late for the new Southern franchise?)
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 10, 2009 14:19:35 GMT
Did it even call anywhere between Kensington Olympia and East Croydon on the Herne Hill journeys. As far as I know,there were no station stops scheduled on any Xcountry journey between East Croydon and Olympia. But what intrigues me is,why was it so important to retain the Factory Jct-Latchmere Main Jct route as being in passenger service? Was it just a matter of wanting to avoid the expense of closure proceedings? If ELLX Phase 2 goes through,most of this route will get,what.4tph in a few years anyway,so perhaps they just wanted to skip the burocracy of closing and then re-opening? |
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 10, 2009 15:31:42 GMT
I believe that to close a line you need consultations, paperwork, beancounters left right and centre etc etc - hence places such as this where the parly trains (or in this case RRBS) run as a least costly option. Look, for example, at Gainsborough Central station - 3 trains per week run to save having to pay to have it closed (of course people might actually use it if the service were at a decent frequency).
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Post by cetacean on Jan 11, 2009 1:10:03 GMT
But what intrigues me is,why was it so important to retain the Factory Jct-Latchmere Main Jct route as being in passenger service? Was it just a matter of wanting to avoid the expense of closure proceedings? If ELLX Phase 2 goes through,most of this route will get,what.4tph in a few years anyway,so perhaps they just wanted to skip the burocracy of closing and then re-opening? And taxpayer expense, which would be considerably more than £500 a week to either make the closure happen or subsidise a train service of any sort. |
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Post by happybunny on Jan 11, 2009 8:52:08 GMT
ay to have it closed (of course people might actually use it if the service were at a decent frequency). And tees-side airport station, which sees one train a WEEK in each direction... not idea when trying to plan your journey to the airport !!  |
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 11, 2009 12:01:51 GMT
Though when (if?) ELLX 2 opens,there will still have to be a bus,or a closure order,for the section Longhedge Jct-Latchmere Main Jct (ELLX 2 using the Ludgate Lines) as well as the Poplar Lines and lines in the Willesden Jct/Mitre Bridge Jct area peculiar to these services.
So DfT will presumably have to either find new services for these lines,bite the Closure bullet,or we may be seeing this "Ghost Bus" for a while yet.
This all begs the question as to what is regarded as an "acceptable replacement" for a withdrawn train service? One change of trains? Two?
It must be fairly slack if a weekly bus service,between stations never served by the original train,is regarded as sufficient.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 11, 2009 16:42:12 GMT
I question how it costs £500 for a return trip once a week though - must be a very high end coach!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2009 18:17:39 GMT
I suspect most of that is the administration, rather than the coach itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 23:16:53 GMT
I suspect most of that is the administration, rather than the coach itself. If fuel prices hadn't started coming down again, it probably would have been just the fuel..! |
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Post by upfast on Jan 12, 2009 23:01:09 GMT
Just found out that ironically the coach service is operated by an Arriva company! The hire cost is less than the £500 reported.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 13, 2009 9:23:05 GMT
but as mentioned above the £500 will include the admin of hiring it, etc
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Post by happybunny on Jan 13, 2009 11:03:58 GMT
I was gonna get it but slept in  |
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 13, 2009 15:56:17 GMT
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Post by upfast on Jan 13, 2009 17:22:22 GMT
Are Tellings Golden Miller part of Arriva? Yes. Comes from the Heathrow depot. The coaches that the allocate to that route are wheelchair accesible. They are also going to put their newest coaches on it in the near future! |
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 13, 2009 17:34:24 GMT
New coaches on a route that gets no passengers, well at least the wear and tear will be kept to a minimum....coincidence?  |
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I think it would be pretty cool have a mini-forum meet on this coach... the ticket is £5.10 (according to that website) which figures, as that is the standard price for the train ticket at that time.
