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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 14:28:43 GMT
At one time, I can remember the Moorgate - Finsbury Park bit of NR (formerly the Northern City) being on the tube map, as indeed was the Thameslink between Elephant & Castle, London Bridge - Kentish town.
This was all in addition to the NLL. Somewhere along the line, all this got dropped and now we just have the NLL/London Overground. I think this is a shame - it made sense to retain the former Northenrn City line and the central London parts of Thameslink (the closest London has to an RER).
I also think the Croydon Tramlink should be on the tube map (as the DLR is), too.
Does anyone know why all these bits of NR were dropped from the tube map? And does anyone agree they ought to come back?
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Post by happybunny on Dec 30, 2008 15:10:52 GMT
But we have all the lovely wheelchair circles, and bus services, etc etc instead
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 30, 2008 18:18:00 GMT
IMO, the map itself is far too cluttered as it is. Half the stuff on there is irrelevent. Lovely, we know which station has a lift to the platform for wheelchairs but not buggies on the second Tuesday afternoon of every month - but surely a separate map could be provided with such details in. Perhaps it could also include useful things like whether the station has a booking office, or toilets etc. However, for the basic map the KISS principle ought to apply - just provide the minimum content required. If people want to know whether there's a lift, or a toilet, or a booking office, or which bus goes outside the station, or how far it is to the nearest Paypoint (to top up the Oyster when the ticket office is shut : - they can look it up in another map / list / appendix. An oft-heard cry is that passengers ought to read the information; but if such information is difficult to understand even for a seasoned user, the occasional traveller doesn't have a cat in hell's chance!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 18:23:02 GMT
IMO, the map itself is far too cluttered as it is. Half the stuff on there is irrelevent. Lovely, we know which station has a lift to the platform for wheelchairs but not buggies on the second Tuesday afternoon of every month - but surely a separate map could be provided with such details in. Perhaps it could also include useful things like whether the station has a booking office, or toilets etc. However, for the basic map the KISS principle ought to apply - just provide the minimum content required. If people want to know whether there's a lift, or a toilet, or a booking office, or which bus goes outside the station, or how far it is to the nearest Paypoint (to top up the Oyster when the ticket office is shut : - they can look it up in another map / list / appendix. An oft-heard cry is that passengers ought to read the information; but if such information is difficult to understand even for a seasoned user, the occasional traveller doesn't have a cat in hell's chance! Well, they could get rid of all this recent stuff (which I agree does feel a bit OTT in places) and return to putting the bits in that I mentioned ...
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 30, 2008 18:30:07 GMT
I also think the Croydon Tramlink should be on the tube map (as the DLR is), too. That wouldn't work, as Tramlink only connects with LU at Wimbledon. I think that Overground (and maybe DLR) should be taken off the tube map, and just have their own maps, and also have a map that has all National Rail, LU, DLR and Tramlink lines on it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 18:43:37 GMT
I also think the Croydon Tramlink should be on the tube map (as the DLR is), too. That wouldn't work, as Tramlink only connects with LU at Wimbledon. I think that Overground (and maybe DLR) should be taken off the tube map, and just have their own maps, and also have a map that has all National Rail, LU, DLR and Tramlink lines on it. Hmmm. When the DLR opened it only really connected with LU at Stratford and it still went on the map, so I think Tramlink could easily go on (and effectively put South London on the map properly). With London Overgound, I think you have a point. My preference would for it to go on in white (as the old NLL did) to emphasise that this is NOT part of the LU system and does not offer a tube-level frequency of service. Along with this could return the Northern City in a similar way. There is already a map offering full details of all LUL, NR, DLR and Tramlink lines; the London Connections map.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 18:44:38 GMT
I agree that the tube map is much too cluttered as it is, but I do think that LO and the DLR do have a place on there, because they both have (or will have at least) metro frequencies. it just needs to be redesigned, the 1940s Beck design style doesn't really work that well anymore. Blasphemy I know
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 30, 2008 18:54:36 GMT
There is already a map offering full details of all LUL, NR, DLR and Tramlink lines; the London Connections map. So if you need to use London Overground, then use that, or an Overground map. The tube map should just be a LU map, not a TfL map. Or at least have a map that only has LU on it, as there is a DLR map that doesn't have anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 19:00:16 GMT
There is already a map offering full details of all LUL, NR, DLR and Tramlink lines; the London Connections map. So if you need to use London Overground, then use that, or an Overground map. The tube map should just be a LU map, not a TfL map. Or at least have a map that only has LU on it, as there is a DLR map that doesn't have anything else. The thing is there's always been a handfull of non-LU lines on the tube map - the NLL was there for as long as I can remember. Although when you think about it, the quesion of "why?" is perhaps begged for that one, as the NLL was never anything like a part of the LU in the way that, say, the Northen City was. It just seems a bit of an inconsistant approach as to what is included and what isn't.
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Post by compsci on Dec 30, 2008 19:43:12 GMT
The NLL was added after a campaign by residents. There is an enamel map at Acton Depot that has been vandalised by the addition of a stick on NLL, in a totally different style to the rest of the map. It looks hideous, but I suppose that it got the point across.
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Post by upfast on Dec 30, 2008 21:00:10 GMT
When the DLR first opened it was operated by London Underground. That may well be why it was and still is on the map. Personally, keep the Tube Map as Tube/DLR and then have the High Frequencies map more readily available.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 31, 2008 13:00:48 GMT
There was also a marketing campaign at the time for the NLL, so I'm led to believe. Its a tricky question what goes on the map; for the number of people who despise what the standard tube map has become it probably has the right amount of information on it for the purpose it serves, its just very poorly represented.
The Northern City is an interesting one. It'd be good to show, but also the cross platform interchanges alow fare evading.
If it were me, I'd have a standard tube map that'd show the underground only, with a station facility index on the rear which showed step free access to platforms too. A new publication would be in the larger size, and include 'Key London Routes'; so underground, overground, tramlink, DLR, south london line, NCL, Thameslink, and certain orbital bus routes. Zones would be on there, but not frequency or accessability. The final one would be the High frequency London Connections map already existing.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 3, 2009 10:42:14 GMT
When the DLR first opened it was operated by London Underground. That may well be why it was and still is on the map. Personally, keep the Tube Map as Tube/DLR and then have the High Frequencies map more readily available. As far as I know, it was never operated by London Underground.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 10:25:48 GMT
I think the right lines are on there right now - except for the replacement bus and other replacement rubbish obviously. The tube, DLR and Overground are / will be run at tube frequencies. Gospel Oak to barking will go to 4tph and the rest will be at even higher frequencies. This is much higher than frequencies on parts of the LU network, but no one seems to think the Chesham shuttle, for example, shouldn't be shown.
Furthermore, the Overground is being upgraded to tube standard in other ways as well, such as PAYG, signs, staff etc. etc., and the lines are also wholly within London and provide interchange with many tube stations.
The DLR simply is a metro system and definitely deserves to be on there. I would probably add the central sections of Thameslink (once upgraded) and Crossrail as well, as they will be high frequency cross-London services as well.
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Post by amershamsi on Jan 5, 2009 12:18:24 GMT
If you have Thameslink and Crossrail, you ought to have Charing Cross/Cannon Street to London Bridge as very high frequency NR services in Central London.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 18:46:11 GMT
If you have Thameslink and Crossrail, you ought to have Charing Cross/Cannon Street to London Bridge as very high frequency NR services in Central London. Yes and no. Yes for the reasons you say, but no for the fact that those parts of the system aren't meaningfully integrated with the LU ticketing (such as the continuing ... and continuing ... absence of oyster PAYG). Plus you have to stop adding bit sof NR tot he tube map somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 18:48:35 GMT
As an aside, it's worth remembering that the Waterloo & City line has pretty much always been on the tube map even in the days when it was fully-fledged BR line.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 22:58:31 GMT
If you have Thameslink and Crossrail, you ought to have Charing Cross/Cannon Street to London Bridge as very high frequency NR services in Central London. Which is one you tend to forget about but it saved my bacon the other week when I was travelling Bond St - London Br on the Jubilee for the 1853 London Bridge - Tonbridge, a security alert threw the Jubilee down the drain and we were stuck at Green Pk. A quick mental think and I did the Picc from Green Pk to Picc Circus for the Bakerloo to Charing Cross for South Eastern to London Bridge and made my train with 2 mins to spare. phew
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Post by max on Jan 6, 2009 8:19:44 GMT
Of course, if Charing Cross Jubilee was still usable, they could have sent you there instead of Green Park, and it would have been much easier for you to have picked up the Tonbridge train.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 6, 2009 9:39:01 GMT
They did use it to start with despite management wishing it to 'never be used for passengers again'. I believe to stop overcrowding at Green Park a train or two has run in pax to CX and detrained there. This was a while back though.
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Post by amershamsi on Jan 6, 2009 12:48:24 GMT
Yes and no. Yes for the reasons you say, but no for the fact that those parts of the system aren't meaningfully integrated with the LU ticketing (such as the continuing ... and continuing ... absence of oyster PAYG). Plus you have to stop adding bit sof NR tot he tube map somewhere. But it'll have PAYG soon - isn't it the end of the year when NR in London has it. What other reasons are there for it's non-inclusion. It can't be frequency - you'd have the Elephant branch of Thameslink and the Heathrow and eastern branches of Crossrail (at least some parts of them), and Cannon Street, post Thameslink project would be 20tph, with Charing Cross remaining 28tph. As I said - very high frequency lines. If you add Crossrail and Thameslink, you cannot sensibly not add higher frequency lines.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2009 13:48:13 GMT
Yes and no. Yes for the reasons you say, but no for the fact that those parts of the system aren't meaningfully integrated with the LU ticketing (such as the continuing ... and continuing ... absence of oyster PAYG). Plus you have to stop adding bit sof NR tot he tube map somewhere. But it'll have PAYG soon - isn't it the end of the year when NR in London has it. What other reasons are there for it's non-inclusion. It can't be frequency - you'd have the Elephant branch of Thameslink and the Heathrow and eastern branches of Crossrail (at least some parts of them), and Cannon Street, post Thameslink project would be 20tph, with Charing Cross remaining 28tph. As I said - very high frequency lines. If you add Crossrail and Thameslink, you cannot sensibly not add higher frequency lines. Well I guess in the end it is just a question of having to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you might as well add Vauxhall - Waterloo, Finsbury Park - Moorgate, Stratford - Liverpool Street on NR etc. etc. Charing Cross - London Bridge would be a relatively small section of the line that really is high frequency, and while it goes quite far into the centre of London, it still doesn't provide a through-service. Trains from Charing Cross to London Bridge can also go to 12 destinations, run by 2 train providers, and can depart from 6 different platforms which seems like it would just be too confusing for the average train traveller.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 6, 2009 13:58:06 GMT
As an aside, it's worth remembering that the Waterloo & City line has pretty much always been on the tube map even in the days when it was fully-fledged BR line. Quite right! Looking back it has been consistently there since the "No.2 1938" card map and not missing an issue!
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Post by johnb on Jan 6, 2009 17:21:23 GMT
Well I guess in the end it is just a question of having to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you might as well add Vauxhall - Waterloo, Finsbury Park - Moorgate, Stratford - Liverpool Street on NR etc. etc. Well yeah, all the above should be on the map, obviously. The passenger doesn't care whether her train is operated by LU, DB/MTR, Serco or FirstGroup, as long as the frequency is turn-up-and-go and her Travelcard or Oyster PAYG is valid on it. The difference between LU and other London metro services is only of relevance to staff and geeks... It's pretty damn useful though - as is Thameslink from KXSP to London Bridge, and SN/SE from Waterloo East to London Bridge. I doubt the average user of CX knows or cares the difference between SN and SE (why would they?). A big sign saying "First train for Waterloo East and London Bridge goes from Platform [X]" would do the trick nicely...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2009 18:46:48 GMT
But it'll have PAYG soon - isn't it the end of the year when NR in London has it. Originally it was "2009". Then it gradually became - "sometime by the end of 2009". The TOC's now seem to be stalling this out to probably end up being "31 December 2009" if we're lucky. I wouldn't be surprised if it's still not up and running by this time 2010.
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