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Post by amershamsi on Mar 29, 2006 16:19:42 GMT
<dons asbestos suit>
This could also be in the Circle line section, but I feel it covers the district as much, if not more...
at the moment the circle is annoying as it doesn't have a terminus, my proposal is to give it a terminus, at Wimbledon
basically Wimbledon trains, from Earls court will alternate which way round the circle they go, before heading back to Wimbledon. the Gloucester Road - High St Ken section of the circle will have trains on it running from Edgware Road (using the terminating capacity now released) to the District to the East. the Met, H&C and the rest of the district will remain the same.
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 16:47:41 GMT
Something like this was proposed once, but it was shot down because it would have resulted in greater pressure on the flat junctions on the Circle Line. Given modern, neoconservative thinking on signal overlaps and interlocking, you probably wouldn't be able to handle the increase in traffic over the junctions unless you did some judicious resignalling.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 29, 2006 16:57:08 GMT
Something like this was proposed once, but it was shot down because it would have resulted in greater pressure on the flat junctions on the Circle Line. Given modern, neoconservative thinking on signal overlaps and interlocking, you probably wouldn't be able to handle the increase in traffic over the junctions unless you did some judicious resignalling. Too many long words, TOK ( ;D ;D ;D) but quite right The Hammersmith teacup would be a better bet, but that's not on either.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 29, 2006 18:02:30 GMT
The Circle does technically have a terminus - Aldgate, the one place they have exclusive platforms in both directions. Circle line trains technically have 'recovery time' built into the timetable - so if it's all running to time, you will often sit at Aldgate for five minutes or so, waiting correct time to depart.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 29, 2006 19:22:42 GMT
The Hammersmith teacup would be a better bet, but that's not on either. Oh yes it is, and it is in the upgrade plan that has been published.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 19:29:06 GMT
Ugh.
I presume then that something will be done about the increase in tph over Praed Street Junction?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 29, 2006 19:32:43 GMT
Every other Outer rail Circle to Wimbledon, which reduces the amount of Edg Rd Wimbledons required and thins out the O/R Circle via High St Ken too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 19:49:50 GMT
Which will result in a theoretical service drop between HSK and Paddington Praed Street.
I assume that the theoretical loss in service levels will be balanced by the increased reliability of the services that are still running?
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 29, 2006 20:59:29 GMT
I think people have misunderstood - sorry for not being clear enough (or are other plans being mentioned in the last few msgs?)
My proposal is to extend Wimbleware trains round the circle, taking over the paths on the southern circle for Wimbledon trains and going to Wimbledon. the circle line would be cut back to Edgware Road, down the west side, along the south side to Upminster (where currently Wimbledon trains terminate).
I thought that the frequency of the circle (and the H&C) was the same as the 4 district routes - Wimbleware, Ealing-Tower Hill, Richmond-Upminster + Wimbledon-Upminster (at least off-peak and ignoring the Olympia shuttle), though if I am wrong here, the plan doesn't work, obviously!
at Praed Street/Edgware Road you have 2x trains coming from/going to the south, x trains from/to the west, x trains terminating and 2x trains to/from the east - the same as now other than what trains terminate (though still from the south).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 21:43:06 GMT
The ideal would probably be to get rid of the Circle entirely, thus eliminating many of the conflicts at flat junctions. It hasn't really served much useful purpose since the District trains were extended from High St Ken to Edgware Rd around 1930. LT wanted to get rid of it in the 1930s, but decided it was legally obliged to run the service.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 29, 2006 21:44:45 GMT
I think people have misunderstood - sorry for not being clear enough (or are other plans being mentioned in the last few msgs?) Yes, Simon. New(ish) member prjb is a senior member of the planning team for what we're discussing. HE KNOWS THINGS. In other words, we discuss ideas, he talks facts. We then listen and learn.............
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 21:55:08 GMT
When redesigning the SSL service, there are a few things that have to be kept in mind:- 1) The capacity through Earl's Court (remembering that it is a driver depot). 2) The capacity through the various flat junctions. 3) A service pattern that is the same on all lines (e.g repeats itself every 8.5mins, as opposed to being 7mins on one line, 8 on another, and 10 on other). 4) Maintaining service levels on all parts of the SSLs (many plans seem to reduce the HSK-Paddington service).
Going back to the Tea Cup/Praed Street Junction/Edgware Rd issue. The junction capacity would be increased from approx 22.5-30tph (in all directions). This is still considerably lower than other flat junctions on the SSLs such as Baker Street which handles approx 54tph (in all directions). Also, taking in account there is no door closing time added to the equation at Praed Street, then it should be able to handle the increased traffic. Edgware Rd would have to reverse twice the number of trains, increased to approx 15tph. But, again as long as stepping back is in place, then again in theory this shouldn't be a problem.
On the Aldgate issue, I believe that there is about 5 mins timetabled dwell time there for Circles. If the same amount of catch up time was applied at a terminus without stepping back in place, then the train would have to dwell for 9 mins. No which one is the most efficient use of stock and drivers?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 29, 2006 22:41:00 GMT
I think people have misunderstood - sorry for not being clear enough (or are other plans being mentioned in the last few msgs?) Yes, Simon. New(ish) member prjb is a senior member of the planning team for what we're discussing. HE KNOWS THINGS. In other words, we discuss ideas, he talks facts. We then listen and learn............. Gee Phil, I just make the tea - honest! We have the new line diagrams in the office for the tea cup. Bombardier needed to know what sort of space they needed to provide in the saloon for line diagrams/central area map. So my boss (I really do make the tea! ;D )got Tfl to make them up. They have caused quite a stir. Sorry Simon, didn't mean to steal your thread it's just there was mention of the teacup service so i thought that I would ellaborate.
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 29, 2006 23:37:23 GMT
that's ok.
surely t-cup line diagrams already exist (pretty much) as c-stock have all c-stock lines on their line diagram.
but from what i understand of your posts, the service will be hammersmith-edgware rd-kings x-tower hill-embankment-edgware rd/wimbledon.
one question remains - pink or yellow?
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Post by customer on Mar 31, 2006 8:44:38 GMT
New member.... purely cattle pax passenger customer.... Very interested in future development for no reason in particular.... Been reading for a while, because you guys seem to supply more info than anywhere else... ....... one question remains - pink or yellow? Oh no - Lots of questions! Starting with..... Every other Outer rail Circle to Wimbledon, which reduces the amount of Edg Rd Wimbledons required and thins out the O/R Circle via High St Ken too. OK - Plans are: - No more H&C to Barking - Combined Circle / H&C service - half-filling the District's Wimbledon branch. Assumption is: - District's Wimbledon - Edgeware Rd service must remain or even increace in frequency in order to provide decent service between High St Ken and Praed St... Questions for the experts are: 1) Is there anough C-Stock to provide this planned Circle/H&C service, plus Wimbledon - Edgeware Rd? 2) If yes, would both these services offer enough capacity to remove the District's Wimbledon - Upminster? 3) If yes, would this mean theres enough D stock free to provide a Rayner's Lane / Uxbridge service on the District? (You know where I'm leading to - theres a lovely long thread on this in the Picc forum...) James
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 31, 2006 11:53:30 GMT
Questions for the experts are: 1) Is there anough C-Stock to provide this planned Circle/H&C service, plus Wimbledon - Edgeware Rd? 2) If yes, would both these services offer enough capacity to remove the District's Wimbledon - Upminster? 3) If yes, would this mean theres enough D stock free to provide a Rayner's Lane / Uxbridge service on the District? (You know where I'm leading to - theres a lovely long thread on this in the Picc forum...) James Hi James, welcome Most of the stuff discussed here is in connection with the replacement of A, C & D stock, by the new S stock - so stock numbers are not necessarily relevant. The H & C service to Barking would most likely be replaced by the Metropolitan line. As for the Rayners Lane Branch, it's still only a rumour at this stage, but does seem very likely to happen.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 1, 2006 21:14:33 GMT
that's ok. surely t-cup line diagrams already exist (pretty much) as c-stock have all c-stock lines on their line diagram. but from what i understand of your posts, the service will be hammersmith-edgware rd-kings x-tower hill-embankment-edgware rd/wimbledon. one question remains - pink or yellow? There will be changes to the diagrams which meant we needed to get them made up, significant changes to the Earls Court area for example. We had a new Met map made up too. Current thinking is Yellow.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 1, 2006 23:24:17 GMT
Did the met one include the Croxley link?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 1, 2006 23:45:25 GMT
No, but it is on our radar.
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