TMBA
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Post by TMBA on Mar 23, 2006 23:04:42 GMT
Why is it that with all the new technology like train identification cameras and train monitoring systems and all the new flat screen panels installed in DMT offices to tell everyone where a certain particular train is plus all the new stormtrooper cameras out there, that when the service goes up the wall like today no on knows where trains are? no one knows what numbers are wherever? even the controller is calling for certain train numbers, even station staff are used as number spotters. Is it just me? or am i missing something.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2006 23:28:26 GMT
The usefulness of a screen in the DMT office is limited by the time and ability of the DMT to interpret it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2006 23:41:14 GMT
I can never understand why that screen in the DMT's office isn't divided into 4! Surely it would make sense if all platforms can be seen at a glance instead of flicking through the channels! Also why on earth is there not a feed from those cameras in the vicinity of the signallers? The amount of times they ring down to the DMT to enquire what train is in the platform...
Maybe the new trackernet thingy will solve a lot of these problems when (if) it is ever up and running properly!
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 24, 2006 0:19:24 GMT
Firstly it comes down to space on the booking on point counter, there are already PC's, trackernet, CCTV, phones, documentation, intercom systems, need I go on? Secondly it comes down to how much information any one person can take in at a time. The DMT (adw!) has to check duties, analysis, juggle spares, book staff on, carry out reforms (who's getting off, who to put on, where is that person now?), deal with short meal reliefs, deal with staff arriving late, deal with staff at the counter, answer the main phone line, answer the direct lines, check the monitors, allocate the right spares to the right duties in order not to let a later spare finish before an earlier one for eg (so as not to upset the little lambs in the mess room!), and still find time to go to the toilet! Not to mention trying to ensure that the spares get an hour out of it, although if you achieve that today - your the best bloke in the world but if you can't do it tomorrow - your a B*****d again. As for the signallers, some cabins do have CCTV but at the end of the day if he/she is booking the trains in and out properly they should know what trains they have in their area and what they have in their 'numbers' (pairs etc).
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 24, 2006 1:41:06 GMT
I can never understand why that screen in the DMT's office isn't divided into 4! Surely it would make sense if all platforms can be seen at a glance instead of flicking through the channels! Also why on earth is there not a feed from those cameras in the vicinity of the signallers? The amount of times they ring down to the DMT to enquire what train is in the platform... Whilst you've been away Alan, the DMT's office at Earls Court have had two new screens fitted, one of which shows all 4 platforms at the same time!! ;D ;D The other screen shows images from the 'storm trooper' cameras - at the moment Notting Hill Gate (westbound), Hammersmith (eastbound) and West Ham (eastbound) seem to be the favourites - i'm not sure why West Ham eastbound would be of use to the Earls Court DMT though The images are not the best - train numbers are extremely difficult to read, but it's a start. Todays problems were basically down to the fact that the signallers lost the train desciptions at South Kensington (westbound). The line controller has a camera there which provides excellent images of the train numbers, but the communication between him and the signaller (sitting in front of him) seems to have left a lot to be desired. The other way that the south Ken signalman could find out what train is what, is to ask the person on the Tower Hill/Embankment desk stitting next to him What hope do we have of providing a good service when three people in the same room can't talk to each other?.......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2006 6:38:29 GMT
The DMT has to check duties, analysis, juggle spares, book staff on, carry out reforms (who's getting off, who to put on, where is that person now?), deal with short meal reliefs, deal with staff arriving late, deal with staff at the counter, answer the main phone line, answer the direct lines, check the monitors, allocate the right spares to the right duties in order not to let a later spare finish before an earlier one I thought there was a grade called 'Train Crew Manager', or is DMT the new name for it?
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 24, 2006 10:00:52 GMT
No, Train Crew Manager (TCM) is an old centurion grade which was replaced by Train Operations Manager (TOM). The TCM (now a TOM) was in overrall charge of the depot and he had a team of Duty Crew Managers (DCM'S) who ran the desk and dealt with the Train Operators on a day to day basis. Then there was Duty Train Manager (DTM) who dealt with incidents and reported on loss of process. So, you had a TCM in charge of DCM's and DTM's. Then they made the TCM a TOM and combined the DCM and DTM jobs into a new grade called Duty Manager Trains (DMT). Every train crew depot now has a TOM (or two!) and under them you have a team of DMT's. Simple! ;D
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Post by Harsig on Mar 24, 2006 10:09:14 GMT
Also why on earth is there not a feed from those cameras in the vicinity of the signallers? The amount of times they ring down to the DMT to enquire what train is in the platform... That would cost money and take ages if the experience of Baker St SCC is anything to go by. Until 1998 Euston Square was the eastern limit of the SCC's control area. Then the Aldgate area was added. This left a gap between Euston Square and Liverpool St still controlled from Farringdon Cabin. Our biggest cause of wrong signals in the SCC is mis-identification of trains as they enter our control area and the transfer of the Aldgate area to the SCC introduced three new locations for trains to enter and be mis-identified (ex Tower Hill, ex Whitechapel and ex Liverpool St) All these are so close to the point where a wrong signal will be cleared that once a train is mis-identified there is almost no opportunity for the SCCA to correct it before the signals are cleared. Therefore in order to provide a little extra time CCTV cameras were requested to check train numbers at Liverpool St EB, Aldgate East WB, Tower Hill EB and Great Portland St WB (for trains coming out of the other end of the 'Farringdon' Gap). In 2000 Farringdon Cabin finally closed and the Euston Square to Liverpool St section came under the control of Baker St. In late 2003 or early 2004 the CCTV cameras were finally brought into use. The ones at Tower Hill and Aldgate East are worth their weight in gold and even the ones at GPS and Liverpool St have their occasional uses even though the gap in the SCC control area has disappeared. The trouble with Trackernet is that the number displayed is largely based on what the signaller thinks the train is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2006 19:13:57 GMT
the t.d on the w/b road was faulty today and then plus having a train sit down at earls court without a driver and they blame it on a signal failure why doesnt lul tell the truth to the punters or is it they dont want to incase they see it has they have no control of there staff
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 24, 2006 19:52:15 GMT
It's easier to tell the punters it's a signal failure, they can relate to that. Our customers (or passengers, whatever you like!) are synical enough as it is without them hearing the in's and out's of a cats backside over the PA. I have heard numerous announcements in recent history to customers stating the delay is due to staff shortages, so I don't think there is a concerted attempt to mislead the travelling public. Honest!
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Post by CSLR on Mar 24, 2006 20:16:00 GMT
Our customers (or passengers, whatever you like!)... To go off topic - When I am being conveyed by others, I prefer to be a 'passenger' or a 'traveller'. That term makes me an integral part of the entire process and it is the very reason that 'passenger transport' exists. I cannot imagine what warped PR mind decided to change a word that is unique to the industry that it serves, in the mistaken believe that I would be impressed by being addressed with the same terminology that describes those who buy extended warranties at Dixons. Maybe they were trying to standardise the language.
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 24, 2006 20:27:44 GMT
It's all perception really. Some people would object to being called a passenger as they have purchased a ticket and consider themselves customers. Other people want to be called passengers for the very salient reasons you put forward. I have always thought of the 'punters' as customers on the platform and passengers on the train, but thats just my perception!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2006 20:37:27 GMT
It's easier to tell the punters it's a signal failure, they can relate to that. Yeah, that on top of the genuine 'signal failures' the punters/passengers/customers, get a really good impression of the reliability of LU signaling practices.
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 24, 2006 21:09:27 GMT
I don't think we do too badly when you consider just how many people we move on a daily basis and then take into account the equipment we have at our disposal to do it. I use the word 'disposal' deliberately here because that's what we need to do with most of our equipment - dispose of it! What I was trying to say was that to a punter, a failure is a failure is a failure. They don't really care if the delay is down to a set of points failing to normalise, or a defective track circuit. The net effect is that they are delayed by a signalling problem, so why complicate matters any more by trying to explain what a 'PL&D' box is!
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TMBA
you like images? check this out - http://www.flickr.com/photos/upminsterthroughtheyears/sets/
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Post by TMBA on Mar 24, 2006 23:01:52 GMT
So what is the point of bringing Trackernet and other systems to make it easier when all it does is makes the service worse than already is?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 2:07:40 GMT
It's all perception really. Some people would object to being called a passenger as they have purchased a ticket and consider themselves customers. Other people want to be called passengers for the very salient reasons you put forward. I have always thought of the 'punters' as customers on the platform and passengers on the train, but thats just my perception! They get called a lot worse sometimes...
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 25, 2006 2:16:09 GMT
the t.d on the w/b road was faulty today and then plus having a train sit down at earls court without a driver and they blame it on a signal failure why doesnt lul tell the truth to the punters or is it they dont want to incase they see it has they have no control of there staff The TD was faulty...........................TD is part of the signalling system............................so it's a signal(ling) failure then..... Incidently, similar problems this evening - i'll be posting in the rant section shortly!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 9:34:40 GMT
no the problem about 11:00 was due to a staff shortage but they say it was a signalling problem in the earls court area
the t.d was wrong when a train left the bay road at tower hill thus putting it all out of sync but if the signalman was watching this and aware of the problem these can be put right at either mansion house or embankment so by the time the train gets to south ken the train should have the correct t.d
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 25, 2006 11:35:32 GMT
So what is the point of bringing Trackernet and other systems to make it easier when all it does is makes the service worse than already is? Well, trackernet is a useful information tool but it is not safety critical and cannot be relied upon for operational decision making. Also trackernet is the basis for another system called decision support which should once fully up and running allow management to deal with crew/service problems much more effectively. Finally, as with any system - Trackernet is only as good as the information that goes into it in the first place! I wouldn't say the introduction of Trackernet has made the service worse though.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 25, 2006 12:47:58 GMT
no the problem about 11:00 was due to a staff shortage but they say it was a signalling problem in the earls court area the t.d was wrong when a train left the bay road at tower hill thus putting it all out of sync but if the signalman was watching this and aware of the problem these can be put right at either mansion house or embankment so by the time the train gets to south ken the train should have the correct t.d Ok, I think I can see where you're coming from on this - I have heard a whisper that sometimes not all of the desk's at Earls Court are manned all at the same time (oops, did I say that out loud? ;D) - but I still think that what the public were told was correct in the grand scheme of things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 14:17:24 GMT
the tower hill desk is the first to go when theres not enough signal operators and the machines are left in FCFS
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 14:35:46 GMT
FCFS? First Come First Served or something else?
That'd be an incentive for racking it up out of Aldgate East for the green line! Get there before those dirty yella's!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 14:49:40 GMT
FCFS is indeed First Come First Serve
but im sure the computer at baker street does not have this feature and only works to timetable or manual working via the signalman
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Post by coyote on Mar 25, 2006 18:07:02 GMT
FCFS is indeed First Come First Serve but im sure the computer at baker street does not have this feature and only works to timetable or manual working via the signalman Baker Street has far more modes than a program machine site, NOOT etc, and FCFS
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 18:19:55 GMT
NOOT = No Out Of Turn
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Post by Harsig on Mar 25, 2006 19:34:30 GMT
FCFS is indeed First Come First Serve but im sure the computer at baker street does not have this feature and only works to timetable or manual working via the signalman Baker Street has far more modes than a program machine site, NOOT etc, and FCFS Actually it has fewer; only three, compared with four for a programme machine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 22:45:18 GMT
Well, I'm perfectly happy to be a punter on the District Line, especially now I use the infamous Oyster The only label that really got up my nose was that of a certain Canadian airline which called those who flew with it "partners" - excuse me, when I buy a ticket I don't buy a business philosophy The good news is - it went bust... (but only after I got home)
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