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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2006 19:06:43 GMT
Last trip of the day today - Barking and back to Earls Court. Arrive on time at Barking sidings, directed into 26 road which is one of those that can take two trains. Fair enough, and both shunt signals are clear so I go right down to the end of the siding. A few minutes later, the next Barking reverser comes into the sidings. I'm due to leave in about 2 minutes and that one about 10 minutes after. Now there are 9 roads to choose from and mine is the only train in there. So which road does the signaller choose? The one I'm sitting on! So now I can't get out.  So now there's me and the other driver facing each other about 20 yards apart wondering what to do next. Onto the signal phone to break the news to the signaller. "Wait a minute, driver". Then "can you leapfrog them?". Turns out this isn't some improbable activity involving taking one train over the top of the other, just swapping trains with the other driver so I can go first. By the time this is all sorted out, I'm 10 minutes late. At least I got some overtime.  Anyone else ever been blocked in like this? |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 22, 2006 19:32:43 GMT
I must admit, I took some of the stories about these signallers with the customary LARGE pinch of salt. Perhaps I shouldn't have..........
But what happens at the end of the day when 2 trains end up in different places from what was planned? Does the bobby take the blame?? And who authorises the change of train number? Bobby or controller??
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 22, 2006 20:24:39 GMT
Surely it's just a case of changing the number physically (on the indicators or onboard computer system), someone changing the number at the control room? The trains are surely identical, so would it make any difference where they end up so long as they're following a recognised rota?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2006 20:37:08 GMT
I doubt the controller was consulted. There was a train 27 and a train 30, leaving in the correct order, albeit 10 minutes late. I did get to swap my grotty train for a nice refurb.  AND it was the double bubble! |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 22, 2006 22:03:17 GMT
Surely it's just a case of changing the number physically (on the indicators or onboard computer system), someone changing the number at the control room? The trains are surely identical, so would it make any difference where they end up so long as they're following a recognised rota? If one was due for maintenance at ECM and it ended up at UPM at the end of the day, I'm sure someone would notice..... |
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Post by trainopd78 on Mar 24, 2006 9:24:25 GMT
Surely it's just a case of changing the number physically (on the indicators or onboard computer system), someone changing the number at the control room? The trains are surely identical, so would it make any difference where they end up so long as they're following a recognised rota? Barking isn't even on the controllers diagram, so its left to the signallers and Duty managers to do the necessary. The control room at Earls Court is informed of any changes, although Earls Court does and can make decisions too. |
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Post by Harsig on Mar 24, 2006 9:43:38 GMT
I doubt the controller was consulted. I should imagine the controller was consulted. After all he'd like to know why the trains were late leaving Barking and he definitely needs to know that the units have swapped trains for much the reason that Phil suggested Another place where trains have been known to end up facing each other, although not quite so close together, is entering Neasden Depot via the Dip from Wembley Park. In this case there are two signallers involved, one at Baker St and one at Neasden TMR and they can each put a train in the dip from their end at the same time. This situation doesn't arise very often fortunately as the solution is not nearly so simple since swapping trains is not a practical option. Reasons for this include - Trains may be different stocks i.e. an A and a 96
- Train going into depot may be defective or otherwise required in depot.
- Trains are too far apart for operators to safely swap over.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 25, 2006 2:25:20 GMT
Interestingly, since this thread appeared, a notice has gone up in the booking on point at Acton reminding us drivers that a train can be signalled into an occupied siding at Parsons Green.
This situation is possible from the days of coupling/uncoupling during off peak hours.
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Post by mandgc on Mar 25, 2006 5:39:54 GMT
Trains betwen Wembley Park and Neasden Depot.
The 1939 resignalling placed a 'Slot' on Neasden South's three Departure signals making it neccesary for Wembley Park to give permission for movements between the two. This seems a basic signalling principle for what are 'Single Lines' . Is this principle not so today ?
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Post by Harsig on Mar 25, 2006 8:51:40 GMT
Trains betwen Wembley Park and Neasden Depot. The 1939 resignalling placed a 'Slot' on Neasden South's three Departure signals making it neccesary for Wembley Park to give permission for movements between the two. This seems a basic signalling principle for what are 'Single Lines' . Is this principle not so today ? shows the current arrangements. All the signals in the dip are these days controlled directly from Wembley Park IMR and all the proper interlocking exists between them, so there is no question of an unsafe situation arising. The reason that MG62 can be clear at the same time as MG16(2)/56/57/58 is because both ends of the dip can be used as reversing sidings i.e. for shunting trains wholly within depot by reversing between signals MG61 & MG62 while at the same time a train reverses between signals MG59 & MG60 for a move from, for example, Platform 4 to Platform 3 if the Jubilee wished to turn a train south to north at Wembley. The problem outlined above comes about because of the arrangements of the control side. Baker St has full control of all the signals shown on the diagram but the it is also possible for signals MG32, MG33 & MG62 to be cleared by the TMR without any involvement by Baker St, provided no conflicting route is signalled. In addition the TMR can also clear MG27 for inward movements and select the desired route at this signal. Presumably this was all done in order to reduce the workload on the staff at Baker St, by removing the requirement for them to be involved in shunt moves being made within the depot, the thinking being that they are supervising a much larger area than the signalmen in the old Wembley Cabin were. Similar arrangements exist for shunting at the south end of the depot. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 20:12:27 GMT
I love it when Harsig posts diagrams ;D
Will the construction of the direct link between the platform 6 fast road and the depot road change any of the interlocking behaviours, i.e. as a result of re-calculated overlaps?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 25, 2006 20:30:46 GMT
Yes, there are changes to the locking (which I hear didn't work the first time around, through no fault of the designer).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 21:09:46 GMT
yes colin you are right trains can be signalled into the sidings wether trains are there or not
this was scarly when i first done a frame test there no one told me about it was going to take the site out of commision i would of been popular wouldnt i ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 21:19:52 GMT
see i thought at barking this could only be done if the train was at the far end nearest to the w/b road where they usually stick the c stocks and that the train as gone all the way up the siding to the FRL's (Fixed Red Lights) i didnt thought they put d stocks in them roads and i didnt thought in the other roads nearest to the e/b this could be done like P.G as barking is quite no site compared to P.G
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 21:48:19 GMT
I love it when Harsig posts diagrams ;D Will the construction of the direct link between the platform 6 fast road and the depot road change any of the interlocking behaviours, i.e. as a result of re-calculated overlaps? Can I also add - will the new trackage allow for faster entry speeds into the SB fast at WP? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2006 23:14:27 GMT
see i thought at barking this could only be done if the train was at the far end nearest to the w/b road where they usually stick the c stocks and that the train as gone all the way up the siding to the FRL's (Fixed Red Lights) i didnt thought they put d stocks in them roads and i didnt thought in the other roads nearest to the e/b this could be done like P.G as barking is quite no site compared to P.G The roads that can take 2 trains are 26 to 29, which are nearest to the W/B. Roads 21 - 25, nearer to the E/B main can only take one train. All can take C or D stocks. If I hadn't gone all the way up to the FRLs then they couldn't have put another train in behind me, but as both sticks were off I went all the way down. Maybe next time I'll just stop halfway! |
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Post by mandgc on Mar 26, 2006 2:55:35 GMT
Neasden: (Harsig#9)
I see. Presumably the soiled trousers are caused by seeing another train entering the dip at the other end as you are going down? No doubt MG 59 and MG 61 can't be off at the same time.
Regarding going to depot over the top, is there some form of permission being given to 'hand over' control of MG 27 and 12 Points ?
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Post by Harsig on Mar 26, 2006 10:07:06 GMT
Can I also add - will the new trackage allow for faster entry speeds into the SB fast at WP? I believe the answer is no. It will still not be possible to admit a train to platform 6 from the SB Fast while a train is leaving platform 5. Thus, in the opinion of everyone on the SCC, this is a greatly missed oportunity to update the signalling to reflect the current usage of the site; i.e. the fact that a significant number of trains now call at Wembley Platform 6 whereas when the signalling was originally designed most trains did not need to stop in the platform and therefore it wasn't nearly so inconveninet if they happened to be halted by signals just north of the platforms. |
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Post by Harsig on Mar 26, 2006 10:26:54 GMT
Neasden: (Harsig#9) Regarding going to depot over the top, is there some form of permission being given to 'hand over' control of MG 27 and 12 Points ? I'm not sure of the technicalities, but the basic method of operation is as follows. When a train is entering the depot over the top the Wembley Park Site Computer, which actually controls the IMR, will, provided it believes the train is to enter the depot rather than reverse on the reception road, when the train approaches MG27 display the incoming train No to the TMR. When they see the number they can set the route they wish at MG27 and this information is passed back to the Wembley Site Computer which actually moves the levers to clear the route. Similarly for outgoing trains the TMR can set the route up to MG30,MG31 or MG61 and this request will be passed to the Wembley Park Site Computer so that it will clear signals MG32,MG33 or MG62 as appropriate. When a train is due from depot its number will be displayed to the TMR by the Wembley Park Site Computer and when the train has reached any one of signals MG30, MG31 or MG61 the TMR can allocate this number to that train, which in effect means telling the Wembley Park Site Computer where the train is. The rest of the route out of the depot will then be set by the Wembley Park Site Computer according to the timetable information it has for that train. You will notice that the staff at Baker St have had no involvement whatsoever in this process, which is great when it is all working fine. However occasionally the link between the computers at Neasden TMR and the Wembley Park site computer goes down and this means work for the staff at Baker St. Firstly signals MG27, MG32, MG33 & MG62 will have to be cleared manually by the staff at Baker St according to the requirements of the TMR and secondly when an outgoing train arrives at the point where its number would be allocated by the TMR the train will have to be renumbered from 000 to its correct number by Baker St before the Wembley Park Site Computer will route it. All this means a lot of phone calls between the TMR and Baker St. |
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Post by mandgc on Mar 26, 2006 23:18:28 GMT
Thanks for the excellent explanation, Harsig ! One wonders if it would be convenient to have a person at Wembley Park to handle these little local problems. They could have a Desk with push buttons and we could call him/her a Signal-Person ( one who attends to signals.etc) and they could take the load off Baker street when things are 'Up the wall' :-)
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AND it was the double bubble!
