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Post by stanmorek on Dec 4, 2008 12:51:04 GMT
An old but good one.
"Start with a cage containing five monkeys.
"Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a ladder under it. Before long, one of the monkeys will spot the banana and start to climb the ladder. As soon as he does, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.
"Replace the banana.
"After a while another of the monkeys will probably go for the banana. Again, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. Monkeys are fairly smart, so pretty soon whenever one of the monkeys tries to climb the ladder all the other monkeys will try and prevent him doing it. When this happens, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. Then put another banana at the top of the ladder.
"The new monkey will spot the banana and make for the ladder. To his surprise all of the other monkeys attack him. After a couple more attempts result in further beatings the new monkey will not make any attempt to go for the banana.
"Remove another of the original monkeys and replace it with another new one. Then replace the banana. Again, the new monkey will make a grab for it. Like his predecessor he will be amazed to find that all the other monkeys attack him. The previous newcomer will take part in his punishment with some enthusiasm.
"One at a time, gradually replace all of the original monkeys with new ones. Each of the newcomers will go for the banana. Each one will be attacked by the other four. Most of the new monkeys have absolutely no idea why they were not allowed to climb the ladder, or why they are participating in the assault on the newest monkey.
"When all of the original monkeys have been replaced, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless no monkey ever approaches the ladder. Why not? Because as far as they are concerned that's the way it has always been done around here."
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 4, 2008 14:18:59 GMT
I've not come across this one before but I can think of an awful lot of parallels, particularly in the railway business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2008 23:37:48 GMT
This is a story that could have a moral for both sides of the arguement. Firstly, it could be said that the old ways are kept going because no-one has the sense to challenge them. Secondly, it could mean that, even though the reason for doing something a certain way has been lost in the mists of time, changing the method of working will lead to someone getting thier feet wet! I can think of parallels in the current railway scene for both sides of that one!
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Post by stanmorek on Dec 5, 2008 23:48:30 GMT
<<Firstly, it could be said that the old ways are kept going because no-one has the sense to challenge them.>>
Or when some will defend the "old ways" to death without being able to provide a clear logical justification...
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Dec 7, 2008 17:50:04 GMT
NR found this out to their cost a few years ago. Rails in the Severn tunnel were always replaced after 6 years come what may. Once NR took over, some bright spark decided 6 years was too frequent - and anyway nobody could provide a good reason for that timescale - so the rails would now last 9 years.............
Only they didn't, and anyone travelling up from Wales about 8-10 years ago frequently had their trains stopped/diverted/replaced by buses due to broken rails (and track circuits, and block joints, and.......).
Surprise surprise, NR have gone back to 6 year replacement and the problem has stopped.
And still nobody knows WHY rails only last 6 years in the tunnel, only that they do!!!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 7, 2008 20:23:37 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel.......
Two trains on Mondays to Saturdays are marked in the District line timetable as not starting from 19 or 20 roads at Ealing Common depot.
I asked a couple of years ago on this very forum if anyone knew the reason why.........I still don't have an answer!
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Post by stanmorek on Dec 7, 2008 22:45:45 GMT
NR found this out to their cost a few years ago. Rails in the Severn tunnel were always replaced after 6 years come what may. Once NR took over, some bright spark decided 6 years was too frequent - and anyway nobody could provide a good reason for that timescale - so the rails would now last 9 years............. Only they didn't, and anyone travelling up from Wales about 8-10 years ago frequently had their trains stopped/diverted/replaced by buses due to broken rails (and track circuits, and block joints, and.......). Surprise surprise, NR have gone back to 6 year replacement and the problem has stopped. And still nobody knows WHY rails only last 6 years in the tunnel, only that they do!!! Good point Phil. Rather like follow a religious rulebook and you'll generally do alright in life even though some of it may seem a bit obscure but it was written a long time ago by a lot of different people with good intentions. However, LU have been doing a little bending of the rules to suit for years but then religiously enforce them as soon as Metronet come along. I suspect that the 6 year rule may have come from bitter experience*. Something like that may be too complex to explain by looking at the track in isolation. As I've been taught the Railways is a interdependent system with many different factors at play. Looking at a single aspect won't help you understand it. "Solving" one problem may cause problems elsewhere. * Another thing that has been mentioned on the forum before - a lot of knowledge and information on the railways is often lost and never passed on properly to future generations. Result is the continual reinventing of the wheel for the engineering side at least. The history of the operational side seems to be much better documented. |
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Post by setttt on Dec 7, 2008 23:10:19 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel....... Two trains on Mondays to Saturdays are marked in the District line timetable as not starting from 19 or 20 roads at Ealing Common depot. I asked a couple of years ago on this very forum if anyone knew the reason why.........I still don't have an answer! Presumably it has something to do with the fact those trains are due out at the same time (one ealing end, one acton). Complete guess, but if both trains were on 19 or 20 and departed at the same time would it cause problems with the (slightly bizarre) signalling arrangements on these roads? Probably completely wrong but worth a shot  |
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Post by upfast on Dec 8, 2008 1:18:42 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel....... Two trains on Mondays to Saturdays are marked in the District line timetable as not starting from 19 or 20 roads at Ealing Common depot. I asked a couple of years ago on this very forum if anyone knew the reason why.........I still don't have an answer! Presumably it has something to do with the fact those trains are due out at the same time (one ealing end, one acton). Complete guess, but if both trains were on 19 or 20 and departed at the same time would it cause problems with the (slightly bizarre) signalling arrangements on these roads? Probably completely wrong but worth a shot In theory you could have a train on the same road (one on 19E and one on 20A) heading off in different directions at the same time. Though local depot rules may prohibit it. The only special signalling related bits (which you may know!) are that 19/20Ealing trains can go west when WM17 or 18 clears or east when the WMX signals clear. Trains on 19/20 Acton can only go east, when authorised by the shunter past the stop board. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 8, 2008 1:47:14 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel....... Two trains on Mondays to Saturdays are marked in the District line timetable as not starting from 19 or 20 roads at Ealing Common depot. I asked a couple of years ago on this very forum if anyone knew the reason why.........I still don't have an answer! I might have an answer; and I think I can tell you when that instruction came in. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait until I unpack the Piccadilly (yes, really) section of the WTT/TTN library.  EDIT: My somewhat frazzled memory does still think there is a clue in something to do with the Picc - from something I read years ago that is now buried in the outer reaches of the library; however, as it's you Colin: I've gone rooting through the bags/boxes and the first mention of 19/20 roads is in WTT 111 (10/1980) which reads 'only the following trains may start from Nos 19 and 20 Roads in Ealing Common depot: 105 at 05 07W, 111 at 0527W, 33 at 0540W and 114 at 0549W' ; there are similar entries for Saturday and Sunday. WTT 111 is unusual for a 'modern' WTT in that the rolling stock working precedes each section of the WTT, rather than being unified. I suspect that there may be some arcane connection with the introduction of Moorgate signalling at Ealing Broadway - track circuit occupancy/clearance times eastwards with the previous WTT 110 - which is hiding somewhere. I might get more clues from the relevant yellow peril, but I know that is currently underneath AIs bed!! EDIT the second: Rather than a timing connection with the Moorgate signalling at Ealing Broadway; would these two trains [1] *not* be scheduled to go over the low neggy detectors at 52/53 roads at Upminster and the east end low neggy detector by WL 116 A; it could be as simple as that - or ensuring that the west end low neg shoe detector works? Either way the complete diagram for the two trains would need to be examined.... [1] originally, when the instruction read Trains ww, xx, yy, zz *must* start from 19/20 roads - I'm sufficiently fed up with packing, I'll have a quick peruse back through the District TT pile to see if I can find out when the instruction changed to trains xx, yy must *not* start from 19/20 roads. EDIT the third: (For simplicity's sake I'm only looking at the Mon - Fri rolling stock working) From WTT 111 (10/1980), until 27/5/95 (last day of WTT 119) there were four trains marked with * that read 'only trains marked * may start on Ealing Common Roads 19/20', with the introduction of WTT 120 (28/5/95) the asterisk changed to three trains. With the introduction of WTT 127 (24/9/2000) the note changed to ' * will not start from Ealing Common 19/20 roads'. There is no mention in the Set Working Book for WTT 127 of this restriction. So there you are, that's when the note started in the current form. There doesn't seem to be anything germane in the revisions section of WTT 127; apart from 'In order to faciliate Customer Delivery Standards on the Circle and Hammersmith Line, 4 District Line 'D' stock trains have been removed from Barking Sidings, 2 trains stabling instead in both Ealing Common and Upminster depots'. Apart from that I'm stumped - I hope this goes some way to giving you part of the answer. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 8, 2008 14:00:25 GMT
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Post by singaporesam on Dec 8, 2008 23:32:05 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel....... EDIT the third: (For simplicity's sake I'm only looking at the Mon - Fri rolling stock working) From WTT 111 (10/1980), until 27/5/95 (last day of WTT 119) there were four trains marked with * that read 'only trains marked * may start on Ealing Common Roads 19/20', with the introduction of WTT 120 (28/5/95) the asterisk changed to three trains. With the introduction of WTT 127 (24/9/2000) the note changed to ' * will not start from Ealing Common 19/20 roads'. There is no mention in the Set Working Book for WTT 127 of this restriction. . I always thought that this was because of Night Crews, and extra walking time being allowed on the first few turns from Acton. It could also be a programme machine thing, once the first train has gone out west from ´inside´ the depot I think this route used to get locked and you couldn´t go back to 19 or 20 or get a release for a shunt up the neck without pleading with the regulator and him cursing at you. |
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Post by 21146 on Dec 9, 2008 0:48:21 GMT
An LU equivalent to Phil's Severn Tunnel....... EDIT the third: (For simplicity's sake I'm only looking at the Mon - Fri rolling stock working) From WTT 111 (10/1980), until 27/5/95 (last day of WTT 119) there were four trains marked with * that read 'only trains marked * may start on Ealing Common Roads 19/20', with the introduction of WTT 120 (28/5/95) the asterisk changed to three trains. With the introduction of WTT 127 (24/9/2000) the note changed to ' * will not start from Ealing Common 19/20 roads'. There is no mention in the Set Working Book for WTT 127 of this restriction. . I always thought that this was because of Night Crews, and extra walking time being allowed on the first few turns from Acton. It could also be a programme machine thing, once the first train has gone out west from ´inside´ the depot I think this route used to get locked and you couldn´t go back to 19 or 20 or get a release for a shunt up the neck without pleading with the regulator and him cursing at you. Remember trains on the east end of 19E and 20E rds could only enter service EB. They could not go WB towards Ealing Common station as the intermidiate 'WMX' signals were Autos only and another train could be routed in from Ealing Common station at the same time causing a collision. That's why these shunts always cleared automatically when stabling from Ealing Common once the halfway point was reached. Plus the walking time was longer from Acton Town. As the Hiker Sid Jones said "there must no movement westbound along 19E or 20E Roads...." |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 9, 2008 0:55:19 GMT
I always thought that this was because of Night Crews, and extra walking time being allowed on the first few turns from Acton. That would hold true for the positive version of the instruction, I feel. It could also be a programme machine thing, once the first train has gone out west from ´inside´ the depot I think this route used to get locked and you couldn´t go back to 19 or 20 or get a release for a shunt up the neck without pleading with the regulator and him cursing at you. To get a definitive answer on that you'd have to peer into the historical versions of the bookwiring for WM; I'm pretty sure now, thinking on it there are/were some strange release conditions mentioned in the signalling notice - but my copy is currently underneath angelislingtons bed (and I'm on the other side of the country). FWIW I think that you may have a point with sequential moves into 'W' and 'X' tracks - 32/31 roads, plus something not immediately obvious about the (possibly sequential) occupation of track circuits over the varied parts of 11, 12, 13 points. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 9, 2008 17:03:56 GMT
Well I did type a reply this morning, then I went lost all I'd said  Let's try again...... First all, a massive thank you goes to mrfs for his efforts thus far - though I don't think we're all that much closer to sorting this one out   ;D ;D Presumably it has something to do with the fact those trains are due out at the same time (one ealing end, one acton). Well that was initially my first thought when I first saw the asterisks and the note, however District line WTT132 to WTT136 shows trains 55 & 62 leaving at the same time (0730) on Sundays with one going west and one going east - there are no asterisks or notes saying they cannot start from 19 or 20 roads. So that kinda blows that theory out of the window. Also there's this snippet: with the introduction of WTT 120 (28/5/95) the asterisk changed to three trains. Now although mrfs says this is referring to where trains must start from, it cannot be linked to same time departures with 3 trains as there are, of course, only 2 roads into and out of the depot. I always thought that this was because of Night Crews, and extra walking time being allowed on the first few turns from Acton. I can't really see your point here - from memory none of these trains have anything to do with night turns, and walking time is walking time....a train going west out of the depot can originate from the Alps, the Acton end if it's on an outside road (though not 19 or 20 Acton of course) or from any road at the Ealing end. It could also be a programme machine thing, once the first train has gone out west from ´inside´ the depot I think this route used to get locked and you couldn´t go back to 19 or 20 or get a release for a shunt up the neck without pleading with the regulator and him cursing at you. Again I'm sure how you are relating this to the two trains which have the note attached - we are talking about something like the 5th and sixth trains out of the depot (from memory as I'm not at home at the moment)....and one of those two trains is going east out of the depot! With the introduction of WTT 127 (24/9/2000) the note changed to ' * will not start from Ealing Common 19/20 roads'. There is no mention in the Set Working Book for WTT 127 of this restriction. So there you are, that's when the note started in the current form. There doesn't seem to be anything germane in the revisions section of WTT 127; apart from 'In order to faciliate Customer Delivery Standards on the Circle and Hammersmith Line, 4 District Line 'D' stock trains have been removed from Barking Sidings, 2 trains stabling instead in both Ealing Common and Upminster depots'. Apart from that I'm stumped - I hope this goes some way to giving you part of the answer. Well at least we definitely know when the instruction started - strange one though isn't it? ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by singaporesam on Dec 9, 2008 23:42:16 GMT
I can't really see your point here - from memory none of these trains have anything to do with night turns, and walking time is walking time....a train going west out of the depot can originate from the Alps, the Acton end if it's on an outside road (though not 19 or 20 Acton of course) or from any road at the Ealing end. If my memory serves me right from WTT120, There used to be two night turns , One Upminster and one Barking , if you combine this with the first couple at Acton (presumably bought in by staff taxi) then you have four fellas with plenty of time to embark on the trek to 20 Ealing, Which is at least a couple of minutes extra walking time compared to say 16 Ealing. |
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;D ;D
