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Post by happybunny on Nov 3, 2008 21:51:37 GMT
So it appears that the lucky folk at LO will get Boxing Day off, no services running, nothing at all..
Now this is under TfL control, how come LO are getting Boxing day off, when LU staff have to work and run a service??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 22:05:05 GMT
AFAIK terms and conditions haven't been harmonised between LO and LU staff (which in many jobs means LO don't get paid as much as LU I do believe). Traditionally the mainline (with one or two exceptions) has closed down for 2 days over Christmas. There's nothing in our terms and conditions which says we *have* to work Boxing Day just, for most operational staff anyway, we are guaranteed Christmas Day off.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 22:07:11 GMT
Probably following on from past National Rail practice of not running services on 25/12 or 26/12. Recently, there has been a partial service in selected areas on the 26/12, and I suspect that LO has to honour it because of a contractural clause for the staff. I'm not privy to the exact workings of LO staff and their respective contracts. I would guess this may change in the future.
TBH, I'd rather work Boxing Day, and any other Bank Holiday for that matter, rather than sit at home and watch a load of tosh on the box...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 22:13:37 GMT
Consider yourself lucky. I'm working Christmas Day & Boxing Day...
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Post by suncloud on Nov 4, 2008 12:15:10 GMT
Different industry but I'm working Christmas Eve and Boxing Day, and because trains (in this case Virgin) take two days off I won't be getting to my parents for Christmas Day  And even though LO are part of TfL, the people maintaining the track and running the signals (and some of the stations) are NR, so an agreement would need to be reached with them... |
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 4, 2008 14:32:18 GMT
LU have got me for all over Christmas, getting double pay and a day in lieu for working the 25th....Jubilee is getting ready for ATO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2008 14:49:36 GMT
Ooh - is ATO going to be running New Year (or thereabouts) then?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2008 18:33:21 GMT
The reason why LO staff are off and not working is because no negoitations have taken place between the Management of LOROL and the Trade Unions. The company was not planning to run services over Christmas this year anyway, however as for 2009 that is another matter.
Keithy RMT rep Conductors LOROL
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Post by DWS on Nov 5, 2008 21:26:59 GMT
Ooh - is ATO going to be running New Year (or thereabouts) then? No ;D |
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Post by DWS on Nov 5, 2008 21:42:18 GMT
LU have got me for all over Christmas, getting double pay and a day in lieu for working the 25th....Jubilee is getting ready for ATO. The Thales Staff working are getting a lot more than double pay, you have sold yourself cheap ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2008 22:22:29 GMT
Mmmm.............but then LOROL is actually a national rail franchise and only the franchise is specified and managed by TFL and not as such a wholly owned part of the family as is LUL. The staff are still employed under the previous conditions of service so Christmas and Boxing Day are not part of the operation yet.
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Post by cetacean on Nov 6, 2008 1:24:34 GMT
Is that true? I thought LOROL hired all its employees fresh rather than TUPEing them across from Silverlink?
But yeah, they're employees of LOROL and in no way employees of TfL, so there's no reason for them to have the same contract.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2008 8:00:37 GMT
Is that true? I thought LOROL hired all its employees fresh rather than TUPEing them across from Silverlink? TUPE = Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment. Staff that are employed by one contractor (i.e. Silverlink) to do specific work (i.e. run the North London Lines) have their employment protected if that work transfers to another contractor (i.e. LO). Can you imagine the chaos - operational and industrial relations - if all the old staff had been sacked on the Saturday and replaced by new on the Sunday? |
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Post by Chris M on Nov 6, 2008 11:52:04 GMT
I'm no expert, but I believe that the new contractor has the option of offering any/all the staff a new contract of employment to replace their existing one. However, the staff are under no obligation to accent the new contract and can chose to remain on their old one if they prefer.
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 6, 2008 11:56:40 GMT
If the employer really wanted to, then they could surely do it by making all the old jobs redundant, but offering new posts to those affected?
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Post by Oracle on Nov 6, 2008 12:10:36 GMT
The problem is that the Transfer of Business Regulations prevent the wholesale firing & re-hiring. Basically, if you are transferred on take-over yor rights carry-over. It is really for the old employer to make people redundant and then the new employer should behave as though they had not acquired the previous business, and the benefit of the work contracts. It is a tricky one, and the Tribunals are waiting inthw wings to argue that there was a bona fide transfer.
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 6, 2008 12:43:50 GMT
LU have got me for all over Christmas, getting double pay and a day in lieu for working the 25th....Jubilee is getting ready for ATO. The Thales Staff working are getting a lot more than double pay, you have sold yourself cheap ;D Station staff are the bottom of the pecking order. |
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Post by Chris M on Nov 6, 2008 13:33:00 GMT
If the employer really wanted to, then they could surely do it by making all the old jobs redundant, but offering new posts to those affected? Now I believe that is illegal. You can't make someone redundant and then hire someone for the same position (regardless of whether it was the same person or not), and I don't think even the best lawyers could get around the fact that you if made a NLL train driver redundant and then employed someone to drive trains on the North London Line that it wasn't the same job. |
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Post by ribaric on Nov 6, 2008 14:02:31 GMT
Spot on Chris. Without the TUPE regulations, a lot more ailing busineses would be bought by speculators but the cost of "losing" staff is the major factor in most cases. Alitalia is going through this at the moment.
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 6, 2008 15:31:26 GMT
I suppose so - I know you can't re-advertise a redundant position*, but I thought that they would find some way of making the 'old' and 'new' jobs different enough to be able to get around that.
Then there's also the question of whether it's right for two people doing the same job to be on different pay and conditions. Not to say that 'single status' jobs are the way forwards; they create a whole different can of worms.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 6, 2008 16:44:44 GMT
Organisations will always want to harmonise terms and conditions as it makes their job a hell of a lot easier. However, the unions will ensure that their members are informed that they have the right not to change if they don't want to. Over 6 years after Defra was formed, some staff that had been transferred from the former DETR were still on different T&Cs to those staff who had come from the former MAFF.
Even things that are apparently superficial can mean big things to some people, and if so they wont necessarily want to give them up.
In this example I presume that staff in the Silverlink Metro side had some privileges relating to travel on the half of the franchise that has gone to London Midland that are different to the privileges that TfL staff get. If you have family in Birmingham then it might be of more benefit to you to retain those privs rather than take the TfL ones
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Post by cetacean on Nov 6, 2008 16:46:59 GMT
LOROL were definitely advertising for lots of new staff, including drivers, and I remember seeing Silverlink drivers on one board discussing whether they were going to apply or not. I definitely got the feeling they did indeed start from scratch.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2008 20:12:18 GMT
LOROL certainly took on more staff, as well as the transfer of the existing staff from Silverlink Metro - that was part of TfL's plan to improve services (later/more frequent/reliable) and for continuous station staffing. I would guess the Silverlink staff you mention were London-based on Silverlink County services and due to transfer to the new London Midland operator. They were free to apply to LO if they preferred. None of the Silverlink Metro staff would have had to apply for jobs with LO, as it would have been against TUPE legislation. Bob Crow, whatever you think of him, would have (rightly) been on the warpath if that had been the case  |
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Post by tubedstock on Nov 10, 2008 9:52:45 GMT
I can assure you Tomcakes that this wouldnt happen, Im a London Midland employee and we r still on Central Trains T+Cs and our ex silverlink colleagues r still on thier old T+Cs. Believe me, Im an RMT rep and the riot that would be caused if any TOC tried to make staff redundant and then employ them again on different T+C would cause unbelievable headaches for the TOC. Anyway TUPE protects against this for a set amount of time, any new contracts even after TUPE would have to be negotiated with us at the union and mutually accepted by us and the company.
Cheers
TubeDStock
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Post by jswallow on Nov 26, 2008 8:12:41 GMT
You should come and work for our company in the IT outsourcing industry. I run a team of people, all of whom are on different contracts because they TUPEd from their company to ours when we took over their IT service. Different hours, different rates of pay, different overtime rules, makes you wonder how the HR department keeps track of it all. But completely legal and absolutely as it should be.
Our laws relating to this are spot on. I'm just glad I don't work in America where you can be sacked at the drop of a hat (we were very amused when Americans came over here to sort out a problem and thought they could just do that to their British employees).
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