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Post by ajamieson on Oct 30, 2008 12:27:36 GMT
I got caught out on Saturday trying to travel from Bond Street to Westminster.
TfL website, rainbow indicators and platform indicators all showed a "good" service on the Jubilee except the planned part-suspension from North Greenwich to Stratford. So I was somewhat surprised to find my North Greenwich train was subjected to an excruciating speed restriction that required an inch-by-inch stop-start crawl to Green Park lasting almost 15 minutes. Without any further explanation from the driver (who was presumably as confused as the passengers) we were tipped out at Green Park to join hundreds of others already waiting on the platform. The platform staff said "two out of every three" Jubilee trains were terminating at Green Park because of the engineering work at North Greenwich (?) and that the speed restrictions were in place because of the number of customers on the platform. Eh? So even with a good Saturday headway of 5 minutes, that's a wait of up to 15 minutes for a through-train, a speed restriction of more than 10 minutes and a two-in-three probability of having to change trains because platform indicators falsely label Green Park trains as besing destined for North Greenwich!
The platform staff at Green Park were very patient and helpful - but how they tolerate that nonsense and a constant supply of misinformed, irritated punters I have no idea. Is this normal?
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Post by Tubeboy on Oct 30, 2008 12:51:26 GMT
Yep it is normal.
When there is engineering work between NOG and Stratford, only a 6 minute interval is provided on the extension, as all trains have only the middle platform at NOG to reverse. Some turnarounds are very quick, others less so.
Obviously as lots of trains are tipping out at Green Park [to reverse at Charing X] there will be a delay for trains caught behind. With only one platform, and numerous problems [usually pulling the pax alarm for no reason] the service sometimes gets clogged up getting into NOG. Sometimes there are 15 minute gaps on the Westbound from NOG.
2/3 of the trains terminating at Green Park sounds right to me.
As to your driver, he really should be a lot more informed. there are traffic notices he has to sign for, so ignorance is no excuse. Maybe he couldnt be bothered to explain. No excuse for that either.
Due to late running, some NOG trains could be turned short at Green Park.
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Post by ajamieson on Oct 30, 2008 16:29:53 GMT
Thanks for the explanation - much appreciated.
It does strike me as bizarre that this is passed off as normal service.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 30, 2008 17:13:33 GMT
2/3 of the trains terminating at Green Park sounds right to me. But not to me. I'm pretty sure it should be the other way around i.e. two trains out of three go through to North Greenwich. Anything else suggests that there were problems somewhere that caused additional trains to be terminated at Green Park |
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Post by happybunny on Oct 30, 2008 17:38:13 GMT
Certainly when I was on the Jub and they had the shut down NOG- Stratford it was 1 out of 3 turning in the cross.
There was always 2 SA's on the platform to de-train so it was done quickly. There was never really any other problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 19:27:49 GMT
TTN 59/08 was in force which called for:
Stanmore - North Greenwich every 4 - 8 mins (10tph)
Stanmore - Charing Cross every 12 mins (5tph)
This provides a 4 min (15tph) service between Stanmore and Green Park.
As previously said 2 out of 3 through.........
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Post by glasgowdriver on Oct 30, 2008 19:30:58 GMT
feel as tho i should maby add as happy bunny points out there would normally be 2 sa's on the platform but as i find out when i detrain trains one gets caught up by customers asking questions so that normally leaves one person to detrain the train (bearing in mind a jubby train is 7 cars) this can also lead to the sa detraining the train getting stopped every 5 seconds with customers asking questions as your trying to "tip-out".
also you get the passengers that tend to board the train when the doors open even tho pa's are probally telling them it terminates you then have to get them off so maby it was due to the fact of this that there was alot of trains blocking back as they say that delayed you getting into green park.
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Post by stuartpalmer on Oct 30, 2008 21:07:11 GMT
I sometimes wonder why so much effort goes into "tipping out" passengers who can't be bothered to listen to announcements. In this example, if they choose to get on (or stay on) at Green Park and end up taking a trip back to Green Park via Charing X, wouldn't that teach them to listen to announcements next time?
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Post by upfast on Oct 30, 2008 21:10:23 GMT
I sometimes wonder why so much effort goes into "tipping out" passengers who can't be bothered to listen to announcements. In this example, if they choose to get on (or stay on) at Green Park and end up taking a trip back to Green Park via Charing X, wouldn't that teach them to listen to announcements next time? Not since some of them have got worried and tried to get out from between the cars and died. Thus, all passenger overcarries are reportable to the RAIB (dont know if this includes those that continue onto a running line). |
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Post by happybunny on Oct 30, 2008 21:44:32 GMT
When I was an SA doing 'Tipping Out', If I was asked questions whilst carrying out my safety critical duties (tipping out the train) I told the customer, whilst carrying on "I am busy right now sir/madam I will be free in a minute to answer questions"
I remember once at East Ham when trains were reversing there EB - WB the SA who was supposed to be tipping out was so busy answering questions, I did it myself! I was stood at the cab watching, after doing my two cars, and the SA seemed to think answering the punters questions was more important than finishing the job so I just ran back and did it myself.
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Post by ribaric on Oct 30, 2008 22:01:13 GMT
It does. I was the investigating officer for a PUT at Liverpool Street (2003/4-ish) where a young student somehow failed to get off a reverser. For some reason, we'll never know why, he tried to jump onto the platform from between the cars as the train ran to the sidings - with tragic results.
My investigation concluded that this young man died as a result of his own reckless behaviour but this was not accepted by the LU safety board (Dan Howarth) and he inserted a recommendation that, from then on, all reversing trains will be attended by station staff and that every car would be checked individually before the doors are closed by use of porter buttons. The H&S commission accepted that and added the need to report all over-carry incidents - and so the procedure is now set in law. I don't if Dan knew in advance what the H&S commission wanted as a minimum, he certainly didn't tell me. Whether or not the cost/benefit analysis is a good one I'll leave you to decide.
I hope this doesn't transgress this board's PUT policy, I merely wanted to shed light on why LU does what it does with regard to reversing tip-outs.
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Post by Tubeboy on Oct 30, 2008 22:10:58 GMT
TTN 59/08 was in force which called for: Stanmore - North Greenwich every 4 - 8 mins (10tph) Stanmore - Charing Cross every 12 mins (5tph) This provides a 4 min (15tph) service between Stanmore and Green Park. As previously said 2 out of 3 through......... I stand corrected, blame the Vodka.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 0:06:34 GMT
Sounds like lazy operations.
If trains were to be double ended in and out of North Greenwich, then a 4 min frequency could be run on the extension. Extra dwell time could be timetabled at Canary Wharf in both directions to allow drivers to enter/exit the rear cab, and to maintain service reliability.
Hong Kong MTR can reverse in a single platform with a 2min36sec frequency, and Metro De Santiago can do intermediate station on-line reversals and still maintain an average 1min45sec frequency. Thus LU's 6min effort on the Jubilee Line is rather poor by comparison!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 0:08:16 GMT
Could they not just use stepping back?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 31, 2008 1:02:58 GMT
Double ending would allow a quicker turnback - however, not all the routes permitted by the signalling at North Greenwich are currently in commission - particularly the WB junction home on the EB and the various combinations of 'wrong-direction/bang road' arbour lights.
Looking at the TTNs for this sort of service, everything uses platform 2 at NOG - and everything after 0607 until 0028 steps back on a Saturday; after 0735 till 2344 on a Sunday. Unusually, the first two stepping back on a Sunday are both booked to run empty from Neasden.
Stepping back, and the use of platfrom 2 at NOG is also in force when the Jubilee is closed Green Park - NOG. Everything SB tips out and goes to Charing Cross, and everything arriving at NOG from Stratford goes into the middle road and steps back.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 31, 2008 2:11:05 GMT
I hope this doesn't transgress this board's PUT policy No it doesn't Could they not just use stepping back? Even with stepping back, the best you'll get with one platform is probably a 5 minute frequency - hence why every 3rd train goes round at Charing Cross. Another likely reason is available stock - if the line is blocked North Greenwich to Stratford, all the trains in Stratford Market depot are stuck there; so you can only run the service with trains stabled elsewhere on the line.......that can be a deciding factor in the service offered too.... |
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