mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 19, 2008 16:09:40 GMT
During a discussion about these off-forum, the following took place; it would be interesting if anyone familiar with the Vic. - especially the workings at Cobourg - could add anything: Programme Machine TD codes: > > Northbound > > Walthamstow sidings A > Walthamstow B > Seven Sisters ABC > Northumberland Park D > Northumberland Park staff C > Kings Cross ACD > > > > Southbound > > Walthamstow ex depot ACD > Seven Sisters C > Victoria sidings A > Brixton ABD > Brixton sidings ABC > Engineers train BCD
Very interesting, I've checked the NB against a roll from S2 at Seven Sisters, and it makes sense. I guess that there isn't a code for either Highbury and Islington or Warren Street; I'm pretty sure that the programme machine TD routes only route to where there is another PM. I'm not too sure these days that you can actually set up a destination to Warren Street; and looking at old editions of the Vic Line supplement, you could only set up a route to Highbury on the SB (makes sense). I think the PM routes (at least on the Vic) are always to the next place where there are PMs installed.
I'm also pretty sure that the (non existant) NB code for an engineers train isn't needed, as the Regulator at Cobourg will just set up 'Special'. I personally think that the Engineers train SB code is twofold:
- 1. Trains to Finsbury Park, remembering that there were scheduled stock transfers in times past
- 2. Trains to VF23 (Victoria SB Home) if described as a 'Special' would have their route checked before the signal clears. I think this is a hangover between the stages of opening of the Vic. Anything heading south from Northumberland Park and wanting to go on to the new construction southwards could be routed by the PMs.
I've always wondered about the route lever 22; Victoria SB as a whole is quite interesting, the replacement for the old outer home (VF24), which is headway post 404 is not at the same location as VF24. I've just realised - the functions of headway post 1022, which is partway across the crossover must be carried out by lever 22 in the IMR. So it's not quite a route lever... Hmmm. I guess that ommissions in the PM TD codes would be covered by the Regulator for the platforms (I know the selection of codes available at Cobourg - SSS, SSW, WS et seq) and the appropriate Identra setting from the train as a cross-check as the trains proceed. Anyone out there able to add anything to the discussion? ;D Particularly if there was ever a 'Victoria SB' code in the early days before Brixton - the money's on it being 'B' like the NB and Walthamstow? ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 14:52:09 GMT
as the machine got route holes they would be labelled on a diagram as 611 612 613 some do and some dont these are next to the time holes to the right before the middle. if they do these actually route the train if not then the TD holes would route the train in Programme mode and actually put the TD up if incorrect
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 25, 2008 23:44:44 GMT
Hmmm. The 600 route series; one of the bigger omissions from the 1963 IRSE Textbook (only appears in the diagrams at the back) - and the paper Dell read to the Institution of Rly Sig Engineers in 1958 on automatic junction working doesn't mention them at all! What makes the Victoria ABCD codes interesting/unusual is that the PM TD codes seem to bear only a little resemblance to what TDs the Regulator can put up at Cobourg. I've got the huge Victoria Line Handbook from 1972 - and the TD diagram (platform indicator codes are: - Northbound
KX Kings Cross - Kings Cross on platform sign- Seven Sisters on platform sign
SS Seven Sisters NPS North. Pk Staff NPE North. Pk Empty NP North. Pk Empty or Staff
- Walthamstow on platform sign
W Walthamstow WS Walthamstow Sidings
S Special - special on platform sign
- Southbound
SS Seven Sisters - Seven Sisters on platform sign VS Victoria Sidings - Victoria on platform sign ***
- Brixton on platform sign
B Brixton BS Brixton Sidings
- Special on platform sign
S Special SX Test Train
SSS Seven Sisters Staff SSW Seven Sisters - Walthamstow (reversing at Seven Sisters
It seems as if the programme machines provide a vague destination and the Regulator can override/modify what the PM routes. Is this really the case or am I confusing myself?*** Looks like there was never a 'Victoria' destination provided, even with the scissors before the Brixton extension opened. Everything is shown in the appropriate WTT to reverse in alternate platforms, rather than via the sidings. EDIT: Challis (Signalling System of the Victoria Line) doesn't mention how the Regulators TDs tie in with the PMs either.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 26, 2008 12:55:35 GMT
Is this really the case or am I confusing myself? You've certainly been confusing me. Its taken me ages to understand what I think you've been trying to get at. However I hope the following may be of some help. According to the yellow perils for the opening of the Victoria Line the regulator at Cobourg St was not provided with any facility to set up train descriptions (except for temporary facilities at Highbury and Warren St). Rather all descriptions were set up via the Identra system except where a description was required prior to the train passing its first Identra coil location in which case the TD was set up by the programme machine. (This principally applied to trains starting from the sidings at Walthamstow, Victoria or Brixton) When a train passed a coil its Identra description was transmitted to the coil and once received I'm almost certain this must have been converted in to the corresponding ABCD code for transmission to other lineside equipment including programme machines, platform signs and the regulator at Cobourg Street. The programme machines would be able to make a straight comparison between the received code and the one on the programme machine roll, but for the regulator's display and the platform signs the ABCD code needs to be decoded first. If the equipment is anything similar to that installed on the sub-surface lines in the early 1960s then the four line ABCD code is fed into an Annunciator Combinator and this produces a unique output for each different ABCD code. This output causes the relevant code (e.g. KX, SS, NPS etc) to be displayed to the regulator. For the platform signs where several different ABCD codes are required to display the same information, this is simply achieved by linking the unique outputs of the relevant codes together so that an output on any one of them causes the relevant destination to be displayed on the platform. As an aside the looping together of outputs on the Annunciator Combinator was particularly prevalent on the Met with its various different stopping patterns. Indeed it was usually necessary to provide two Annunciator Combinators for each location where the description was displayed. The first dealt with the destination and would have all the the unique outputs common to a particular destination looped together (e.g. the outputs for the ABCDE codes for AM0, AM1, AM2, AM5, AM6 & AM7 would all be looped together to control the indication for Amersham on the platform signs). The second Annunciator Combinator dealt with the non-stopping part of the code and so all ABCDE codes that represented a particular stopping pattern would be looped together (e.g. the outputs for the ABCDE codes AM5, CM5 & RK5 would all be looped together to indicate a train not stopping at Wembley Park, Preston Road, Northwick Park, North Harrow, Pinner, Northwood Hills & Northwood) Finally there was a Victoria description prior to the opening of the Brixton extension. A diagram of the Identra cab switches that accompanied Supplement to Traffic Circular No 27 (1968) 'Opening of stage I of the Victoria Line' shows that the following descriptions could be set up on the system NorthboundNorthumberland Park Depot Staff NPS Northumberland Park Depot Empty NPE Walthamstow W Walthamstow Sidings WS Special S Test Train T Kings Cross KX Seven Sisters SS SouthboundVictoria Sidings VS Victoria V Special S Walthamstow W Test Train T Seven Sisters SS Paragraph E4 of Supplement to Traffic Circular No 5 (1969) 'Opening of Stage III of the Victoria Line between Warren Street & Victoria' also says the following: E4 - Destination Abbreviations Two additional destination abbreviations are shown in the indicator units [at Cobourg St] : - Southbound V Fictoria VS Victoria Sidings
Northbound NP Northumberland ParkNote the typographical error in the spelling of Victoria which actually appeared in the notice (Of course it could have been drafted by a Welsh speaker) Paragraph E1 & E3 of Supplement to Traffic Circular No 22 (1971) 'Opening of Brixton Extension' says the following E1 The Identra train description has been extended to Brixton. The legends on the rotary switches in the Train Operators' cabs have been modified to take account of the extension as shown: "Victoria" description eliminated ("Victoria Sidings" remains) "Brixton" description added
E3 There are two additional destination abbreviations for display in the indicator units [ at Cobourg St] Southbound B Brixton B and S Brixton Sidings The southbound abbreviation "V - Victoria" has been eliminated. "Brixton Sidings" description added.
I hope these ramblings help a bit.
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 26, 2008 14:14:28 GMT
They do, and you confirm my thoughts after reading my copies of the perils. As a Welsh speaker - I approve of 'Fictoria' - though in reality it would be 'Buddug'. Cheers for the hints on the combinators. ;D If I can manage to send you a PM whilst browsing the forum on my phone (as now) I will.
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 26, 2008 21:25:04 GMT
Phone battery died - thank-you Harsig for 'seeing the wood between the trees' - I've been reading a large amount of my signalling notices in some detail over the past couple of days and missed out on important details. ;D
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