metman
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Post by metman on Oct 9, 2008 20:03:00 GMT
My next model to get hold of is a 4 car F stock train.
DM(Double equip)-T-T-DM(Single equip)
I have a couple of questions:
I shall use a former double ended/equipped motor as the single equipped car. The back window is different where the cab door was right? Are the shuttered lights still on the back?
All double equipped motor cars were also double ended. Did these loose their head lights and destination blinds at the trailing ends?
10 single equipped cars were provided with drico equipment for the East London Line. Anyone have the numbers of these cars?
As ever, any photos would be most helpful.
regards Metman.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 9, 2008 20:17:25 GMT
<whisper> I've forgotten to copy those F stock instructions for you. Hmmm. Bear with me....
All car numbers consist of four figures as under:
46... (even numbers) 'A' double equipped motor cars
46... (odd numbers) 'D' double equipped motor cars
46... (even numbers) 'A' single equipped motor cars
46... (odd numbers) 'D' single equipped motor cars
8... and 85 numbers Trailer Cars
Train telephones are provided in each drivers compartment on double equipped motor cars only, and in the right-hand control box in each Guard's compartment.
Bear in mind that the instructions date from 1950, and I'm pretty sure this is pre-DRICO. Also it is not a mistake that the 6 is duplicated, as it is thus in the original document.
EDIT: Silly me, the train telephone is Driver/Guard not DRICO.
What might be germane to you when you make the models is this:
Shoes:
(i) Double equipped motor cars and 'D' single equipped motor cars are provided with 4 positive shoes mounted on shoebeams, 2 negative shoes and associated shoe fuses.
(ii) 'A' single equipped motor cars are provided with 2 positive shoes mounted on shoebeams, 1 negative shoe and associated shoe fuses.
Jumpers: south side (left when going west) bus line and receptacle box, next to bus line jumper is traction control jumper.
On the north side of the train and nearest the sole bar is the auxiliary (door and bell signal jumper), adjacent to the aux. jumper is the brake jumper (for brake and aux. control).
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 10, 2008 6:23:40 GMT
I think all the F Stock motors had the unused cab equipment removed within a few years of delivery. It was not needed and I suspect it was used for other trains to update the old controllers.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 10, 2008 7:27:45 GMT
I think this happened when the EP brake was fitted and the cars became handed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 21:15:52 GMT
Did the 'F' stock ever get a farewell tour and, if so, what route did it take? It was such fab looking stock that I'm looking for an excuse to run one in the future.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 13, 2008 22:20:10 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 23:17:23 GMT
LOVE those LT pics. How about the shot of the 'R' stock set with two red vehicles and the rest in silver? Fantastic! Put a formation like that on a model and some smart-alec would condemn you for it!
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 14, 2008 8:50:04 GMT
No doubt. I'd love to do a 6 car silver R stock train. It'll be something different rather than LT train red!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 15, 2008 12:38:28 GMT
Beautiful picture. It almost looks like a real railway station  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 0:35:36 GMT
On the subject of F stock, can anyone enlighten me as to the route that empty trains ran between Ealing Common depot and the East London Line? Also, has anyone got details of the vehicles that remained at the end of F stock operations in 1963? Were they fixed sets or were vehicles regularly shunted in and out of sets as the service demanded? Thanks guys.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 11, 2008 2:09:35 GMT
Could be wrong, but by the time the F stock was on the ELL it was based at Neasden and on the Met, wasn't it?
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Post by ruislip on Dec 11, 2008 2:49:34 GMT
Were the 8 car trains ever uncoupled off-peak?
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 11, 2008 8:26:25 GMT
Ben is correct I belive. The F stock went to Neasden in the early 50s and stayed there.
F stock was similar to the current A stock. There were A and D single end units. The single equipped cars had no guards panels at the trailing ends (because there was no door!) so trains only worked as 8 cars. The exception was the 10 x 4 cars used for the ELL. They were modified so the single equipped cabs had drico although the guard would still be in the double equipped car and had a double battery set up.
I think F stock only worked in the peaks using 8 x 8 car trains, 6 and 8 car P stock running the rest of the service.
I would love to know the numbers of the ELL units!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 20:28:15 GMT
The F Stock never uncoupled on the Metropolitan Line, although it wasn't unknown for a train to be formed of seven cars only. I am unsure if the ELL sets were 'dedicated' or whether any four-car set would do. Perhaps someone else may help on that one?
It did, however, uncouple on the District, when it was formed 5+3. I believe that uncoupling was done at Acton Town, when 5 cars went to Ealing and 3 cars to either Hounslow or South Harrow. There is a photo of a 3-car F approaching North Ealing eastbound pre-1932 of course, about to rattle over the ground frame crossover if my memory serves me right.
Going off the F Stock but staying with 'uncoupling' on the District, there were two 10-car trains that started up from East Ham in the Mon-Sat morning peak back in the 1920s and maybe before. It fitted into the back platform at Whitechapel (which was extended eastwards over the ELL bridge - rather narrow at that point!), where it uncoupled, six cars going forward to Richmond and four to Ealing. On arrival at Ealing the four-car coupled up with two cars from the sidings, making six cars for the trip back to central London.
There were no such eastbound workings in the evening peak.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 11, 2008 20:40:14 GMT
It did, however, uncouple on the District, when it was formed 5+3. I believe that uncoupling was done at Acton Town, when 5 cars went to Ealing and 3 cars to either Hounslow or South Harrow. There is a photo of a 3-car F approaching North Ealing eastbound pre-1932 of course, about to rattle over the ground frame crossover if my memory serves me right. That sounds about right - check on the WTTs Rolling Stock Working pages I webbed up for TP in the District 1950 WTT thread. ;D |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 12, 2008 1:04:14 GMT
Steam to Silver suggests that there were 10 units that were allocated for the ELL, much like the A stock double enders today!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 19:15:08 GMT
Ah, but was the ELL F Stock able to work on the 'main'. The A Stock double-enders could (and did), of course, even pre-refurb when the painted-only units were about on the 'main'.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 12, 2008 19:25:20 GMT
I would imagine that they could and did work on the mainline. 64 cars were needed for the Met, so they would need to have-there was only 99 cars.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 23:41:30 GMT
There were 8x8 trains of F Stock scheduled for peak service on the Met which indeed gives 64 cars. The residue of 35 cars would have been for the ELL and for maintenance spares.
As a matter of interest, the Met stock requirements remained generally unchanged from 10/9/51 and until 11/9/60 and comprised 50 trains formed 9x6 SS6 (loco-hauled stock), 1xPP3 (the push-pull set for the Chesham shuttle), 8x8T, 8x6T, 7x8P, 9x6P and 8x8F.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 13, 2008 15:43:26 GMT
I'd love to know the numbers of the cars dedicated for the ELL, or was it a case of individual cars (because they were car, not unit stock) like the single equipped motor cars fitted with the Drico/battery equipment?
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Post by ruislip on Dec 13, 2008 15:49:02 GMT
As a matter of interest, the Met stock requirements remained generally unchanged from 10/9/51 and until 11/9/60 and comprised 50 trains formed 9x6 SS6 (loco-hauled stock), 1xPP3 (the push-pull set for the Chesham shuttle), 8x8T, 8x6T, 7x8P, 9x6P and 8x8F. How do these numbers compare to when all the A stock was delivered to the Met and working thereon? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 13, 2008 16:23:23 GMT
Don't know all the full details but, 58 8 car A60/62 stock trains were delivered with about 50-52 trains used in the peak, MRFS will know. Remember, the Aylesbury service was removed so fewer trains would have been needed in theory-bar the timetable improvements.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2008 17:30:12 GMT
Trains in service -
WTT 185 - 12/9/60 - 51 trains - 9xSS6, 1x3T [Chesham], 8x8T, 9x6T, 7x8P, 9x6P, 8x8F.
WTT 189 - 12/6/61 - 50 trains - 9xSS6, 1x4A, 8x8T, 6x6T, 7x8P, 9x6P, 7x8F, 3x8A.
WTT 193 - 11/9/61 - 50 trains - 8x8A, 1x4A, 8x8T, 9x6T, 7x8P, 9x6P, 8x8F.
WTT 197 - 18/6/62 - 53 trains - 25x8A, 1x4A, 8x6T, 8x8F, 2x8P, 9x6P.
WTT 202 - 17/6/63 - 53 trains - 52x8A, 1x4A (a small number of P6 continued for a couple of months).
WTT 204 - 9/9/63 - 53 trains - 52x8A, 1x4A.
WTT 209 - 12/10/64 - 45 trains - 44x8A, 1x4A.
And the rest is history .....
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 13, 2008 23:57:13 GMT
I do; but it has been admirably answered by reganorak, and I don't want to disturb a snoozing AI, as the WTTs are currrently under her bed! ;D |
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Post by ruislip on Dec 14, 2008 23:20:52 GMT
Trains in service - WTT 197 - 18/6/62 - 53 trains - 25x8A, 1x4A, 8x6T, 8x8F, 2x8P, 9x6P. WTT 202 - 17/6/63 - 53 trains - 52x8A, 1x4A (a small number of P6 continued for a couple of months). WTT 204 - 9/9/63 - 53 trains - 52x8A, 1x4A. WTT 209 - 12/10/64 - 45 trains - 44x8A, 1x4A. On WTT 197, were the F and P allotments used to supplement the Uxbridge services during the peaks? On WTT 202, did the P6 operate on or off-peak? Why the decrease in trains between WTTs 204 and 209? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 14, 2008 23:31:28 GMT
I would expect the P stock operated off peak. The problem was the P stock was undergoing CP conversion which was happening quicker than it was required for the District, so much of it was stored! Also the A stock was having teething troubles which included cracks in the bogies and problems with the emergency lighting!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 14, 2008 23:36:47 GMT
Why the decrease in trains between WTTs 204 and 209? At a guess the ELL got a timetable all to itself, so the stock allocations/requirements would have been recorded elsewhere. It is worth noting that the ELL has/did go through distinct periods where the WTT was part of the Met. WTT and times when it was standalone. |
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 15, 2008 6:37:13 GMT
Why the decrease in trains between WTTs 204 and 209? There was a big cut in services across the combine. We went on strike over it, largely because we saw the promotion going back years. For a time, we had drivers working as guards because of the cuts in duties. What we didn't know then was that there was an ever increasing staff shortage and that us guards would soon be driving. It only took me 2 years to get on the front. |
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Post by ruislip on Dec 15, 2008 23:46:23 GMT
Why the decrease in trains between WTTs 204 and 209? There was a big cut in services across the combine. We went on strike over it, largely because we saw the promotion going back years. For a time, we had drivers working as guards because of the cuts in duties. What we didn't know then was that there was an ever increasing staff shortage and that us guards would soon be driving. It only took me 2 years to get on the front. Wasn't this the same staff shortage that lasted into the 70s, and affected both the tubes and buses? |
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 16, 2008 15:20:43 GMT
There was a big cut in services across the combine. We went on strike over it, largely because we saw the promotion going back years. For a time, we had drivers working as guards because of the cuts in duties. What we didn't know then was that there was an ever increasing staff shortage and that us guards would soon be driving. It only took me 2 years to get on the front. Wasn't this the same staff shortage that lasted into the 70s, and affected both the tubes and buses? Yes. While I was at Baker St (Met) in the early 70s we had 30% of the guards' jobs uncovered. |
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