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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 3:15:46 GMT
Dear All,
I have found a number of references to a 'temporary' signal cabin on the Aldwych branch platform at Holborn, that operated from when the main Piccadilly signal cabin was decommissioned in 1979, until some time in 1980.
Does anyone have any information, or even better, photos of this cabin? Especially of the lever frame, as I can't find any info as to what type it was.
The reason I ask is that we've been given permission to install one of the dismantled lever frames stored at the LTM Depot to use for the signalling on the Acton Miniature Railway, but we're trying to sort out which components came from where, as they're all a bit mixed up.
We've found the Westinghouse type 'B' frame that was in the pre 1979 Picc cabin at Holborn, but it is mixed up with bits of a Westinghouse type 'N' frame (which is the one we want to use).
The layout of the levers on the N and B frames match up, so I'm starting to wonder whether we have the frame from the 'Temporary' cabin as well. (It's definitely not the Central line frame, as that has emigrated to Yorkshire!)
Any information anyone could provide would be most helpful
Thanks
Daniel
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 28, 2008 15:55:25 GMT
If you can supply me with a list (or an apparent) list of lever numbers/bits by type, I might well be able to help. Holborn 'B' frameAnything with the number 77 on belongs to the 'B' frame. Any reason why you prefer the 'N' over the 'B'? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 21:06:33 GMT
Thanks, We've pretty much identified which levers and associated mechanisms belong wih which frame, as the two are very different in style, it's just things like the casing, train describer etc, and figuring out how they should all fit together. What we're really after is confirmation that that the 'N' frame was definitely from the temporary box at Holborn, as that'll help us track down the missing bits in the depot stores. We want to use the N rather than the B, because it has all 11 levers present. The B frame only has 7 levers (where there is a 'spare' position, the levers have been removed, as can be seen in that photo). There's some photos of the 'bits'n'pieces' at www.actonminiaturerailway.co.uk/news.htmlThe levers and quadrants pictured are definitely from an 'N' frame, but we reckon the wooden casing and block shelf are from the 'B' and that the 'N' casing is the blue metal casing seen on the trolley in the last photo. We've also found the rotary train describer (?) and 'From Hyde Park Corner' indicator seen in the anorakheaven photo. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 29, 2008 15:54:46 GMT
The levers and quadrants pictured are definitely from an 'N' frame, but we reckon the wooden casing and block shelf are from the 'B' and that the 'N' casing is the blue metal casing seen on the trolley in the last photo. Agreed; I would have thought it unlikely that the 'B' top would not be capable of mating up with an 'N' bottom - if you can't find the 'N' lever plates - this may very well have been what happened in practice with the temporary box. We've also found the rotary train describer (?) and 'From Hyde Park Corner' indicator seen in the anorakheaven photo. Yes, that's a rotary train describer - ribbon storage type. I've got a copy of the patent for them. Take good care of it, as I'm not sure how many twin-drum punchers are still around - the frames up in Yarksheeear (at least those that were fitted with punch drums) only have single drums commissioned Liverpool Street (Central) EB transmitter, Liverpool Street (Central) WB transmitter - any chance of a close-up picture of the Hyde Park describer, please?  I'd be interested to see exactly what the text reads; as I've a sneaking suspicion about special/goods trains being able to be described on/off the Aldwych branch. At least with the 'B' blockshelf you can use the existing holes as registry marks to match the equipment back up to the original position. Have you found the Aldwych bell-push (as shewn in the anorakheaven picture)? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 17:39:21 GMT
Agreed; I would have thought it unlikely that the 'B' top would not be capable of mating up with an 'N' bottom - if you can't find the 'N' lever plates - this may very well have been what happened in practice with the temporary box. Sorry, I'm a bit confused, which bits of the 'B' did you reckon would be able to mate with the 'N'? I'm pretty sure that the 'B' lever themselves won't mesh with an N locking frame. Yes, that's a rotary train describer - ribbon storage type. I've got a copy of the patent for them. Take good care of it, as I'm not sure how many twin-drum punchers are still around - the frames up in Yarksheeear (at least those that were fitted with punch drums) only have single drums commissioned Liverpool Street (Central) EB transmitter, Liverpool Street (Central) WB transmitter - any chance of a close-up picture of the Hyde Park describer, please? I'd be interested to see exactly what the text reads; as I've a sneaking suspicion about special/goods trains being able to be described on/off the Aldwych branch. At least with the 'B' blockshelf you can use the existing holes as registry marks to match the equipment back up to the original position. Have you found the Aldwych bell-push (as shewn in the anorakheaven picture)? We actually found two rotary train describers, the one shown in the photo of Holborn 'B' and another one of the same type and identical text, so these were presumably not carried over between the two frames. I'll see if I can get more close-up photos of the equipment from the chap who took them. If we haven't got one of the 'From Hyde Park' indicator, then I'll try and get a better one when I'm next up at Acton in a couple of weeks. I don't recall seeing the bell-push, but it might be there somewhere. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 29, 2008 17:45:24 GMT
I'm fairly sure that there isn't much stopping a 'B' blockshelf being lashed up to an 'N' frame - after all, the lever plates only carry repeaters. The use of an 'N' would comply with Dell's edict about fireproofing many years prior.
I was talking about the 'From Hyde Park' train describer, as these are combined recieve/transmit punch drums.
Many thanks for offering to look for close-up shots - I suspect the 'From Hyde Park' indicator has the same number of possibilities as the drum.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 19:39:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 6:35:28 GMT
i have only ever seen them once many years ago at our training school at acton
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Post by Tom on Sept 30, 2008 19:02:14 GMT
Temporary cabins were often just banks of telephone type keys mounted on the old frame and used to drive the frame in the IMR until centralised control was introduced. Rayners Lane is a good example, and there are remnants of others still around such as Queen's Park.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 1, 2008 20:18:28 GMT
Marvellous; many thanks. Of tangential relationship to this thread, you may be interested in the following non-stopping codes: Picc WTT 122 (extension to South Harrow) - 4/6/32 A Gloucester Road, Covent Garden, York Road, Holloway Road. B Brompton Road, Russell Square, Caledonian Road, Gillespie Road C York Road and Holloway Road D Caledonian Road and Gillespie Road E Gloucester Road, York Road and Holloway Road F Brompton Road, Caledonian Road and Gillespie Road G Caledonian Road H Brompton Road and Russell Square J York Road K Gloucester Road and Covent Garden P Park Royal WTT 125 - Extension to Enfield West and Hounslow West - 13/3/33 A Gloucester Road, Covent Garden and Holloway Road B Brompton Road, Cledonian Road and Arsenal C Brompton Road and Caledonian Road D Gloucester Road and Holloway Road P Park Royal S South Ealing and Boston Manor District and Picc WTT 17 - 28/11/38 a Gloucester Road, Covent Garden and Holloway Road b Barons Court, Caledonian Road and Arsenal c Covent Garden and Hollloway Road d Caledonian Road and Arsenal e Boston Manor, South Ealing, Barons Court, Caledonian Road and Arsenal h South Ealing, Gloucester Road, Covent Garden and Holloway Road j Boston Manor, South Ealing, Gloucester Road, Covent Garden and Holloway Road k South Ealing, Barons Court, Caledonian Road and Arsenal m Barons Court and Caledonian Road n Gloucester Road and Covent Garden p Boston Manor, South Ealing and Barons Court q South Ealing s Boston Manor and South Ealing |
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Post by programmes1 on Oct 3, 2008 15:06:38 GMT
Temporary cabins were often just banks of telephone type keys mounted on the old frame and used to drive the frame in the IMR until centralised control was introduced. Rayners Lane is a good example, and there are remnants of others still around such as Queen's Park. Tom, The temp cabin at Holborn was next to the old one I don't think that Rayners Lane and Queens Park qualify for being temp cabins after all they are the original structures. I know that the key panel from Queens Park is now in the IMR don't the DMT's use the old cabin now? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2008 18:09:23 GMT
Thanks everyone for all the useful info. The temp cabin at Holborn was next to the old one I presume this means that both cabins were on the Aldwych branch platform? Do you happen to know where they were in relation to each other and where they were on the platform? |
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 6, 2008 19:20:59 GMT
Thanks everyone for all the useful info. The temp cabin at Holborn was next to the old one I presume this means that both cabins were on the Aldwych branch platform? Do you happen to know where they were in relation to each other and where they were on the platform? I have always assumed the original cabin to be what is now the IMR at the Aldwych end of the Aldwych platform and the temporary cabin the room immediately adjacent at the end of the platform. Technically the IMR is not on the platform because there are steps down into it. At the opposite end of the Aldwych platform is the Picc & Central Line T/T Relay Room although the Aldwych branch T/Ts were decommissioned long ago now. |
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 7, 2008 6:01:13 GMT
I have always assumed the original cabin to be what is now the IMR at the Aldwych end of the Aldwych platform and the temporary cabin the room immediately adjacent at the end of the platform. Technically the IMR is not on the platform because there are steps down into it. At the opposite end of the Aldwych platform is the Picc & Central Line T/T Relay Room although the Aldwych branch T/Ts were decommissioned long ago now. I always had a memory (60s) that the cabin was on the platform. There was no IMR then. |
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 7, 2008 12:38:47 GMT
I have always assumed the original cabin to be what is now the IMR at the Aldwych end of the Aldwych platform and the temporary cabin the room immediately adjacent at the end of the platform. Technically the IMR is not on the platform because there are steps down into it. At the opposite end of the Aldwych platform is the Picc & Central Line T/T Relay Room although the Aldwych branch T/Ts were decommissioned long ago now. I always had a memory (60s) that the cabin was on the platform. There was no IMR then. You may well be correct, another possibility is that the present day IMR was simply the Cabin Relay Room, it is in fact quite a cramped little room. I recall Queensway having a similar arrangement in the late 1970s with the signal cabin right outside the relay room. However, I wouldn't think the existing glass and steel panel room at the end of the platform would've been original. Just how many signal cabins have there been at Holborn? Having said that I think I'm correct in asserting that original signal cabins were built on the ends of the platforms but were wooden framed structures, Arsenal and Finsbury Park come to mind. I'm sure it was suggested to me long ago that the Picc was originally built with a cabin at every tube station although I don't know and I don't see the necessity. |
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Post by coyote on Oct 7, 2008 16:27:07 GMT
The first frame was a B style, number 77, with 19? levers, 2 points, 10 signals, 6 spare. Opened in 1906, closed July 1979 when a temporary installation was used on the SB platform for 8 months until the IMR was opened.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 7, 2008 19:23:33 GMT
That is indeed true - remember Holborn was originally intended to be some form of double junction, with the capability of signalling a double track onwards to Aldwych; or retaining the single track towards Aldwych but with much greater control of the platforms (both branch and Picc Main) at Holborn.
Sense eventually prevailed and the box at Holborn only controlled one track - bit like Angel on the Northern; however in the pre-'New Works' era [1] details are much harder to work out as certain parts of the interlocking finesse varied between the constituent companies. Hence the reduction to 11 levers; 19 is an odd multiple - though weren't early 'B' frames built in whole multiples of 5 minus 1, rather than whole multiples of 12 minus 1.
[1] see comments passim on this forum from me about it being theoretically possible to work out the number of every signal on the new works, even those unbuilt. (maybe one day)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 23:04:29 GMT
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 26, 2008 1:38:31 GMT
The first frame was a B style, number 77, with 19? levers, 2 points, 10 signals, 6 spare. Opened in 1906, closed July 1979 when a temporary installation was used on the SB platform for 8 months until the IMR was opened. [thread drift] If anyone wants the information I've now managed to verify the numbering and the diagram for the 19 lever frame. Slotting from/to Covent Garden for EB acceptance and a wrong direction asking lever. ;D [/thread drift] |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 19:34:07 GMT
Thanks to all the help here and from other contacts in the signalling world, we've finally been able to piece together the history of the frame at Acton. As suspected, it was the temporary frame used at Holborn while the IMR was being comissioned. This frame was made up of components from the Drayton Park frame (No 186). Only 11 of the original 35 levers were used at Holborn. We've now managed to find almost all of the components, with the exception of one of the legs that holds up the front of the 'table' and allows the locking frame at the front to be attached. (The part in question is the partner of the one in the left of this photo.) |
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 14, 2008 19:44:44 GMT
Gosh! Drayton Park! Is it really levers 1 - 11?
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2008 20:02:58 GMT
Gosh! Drayton Park! Is it really levers 1 - 11? No. The Drayton Park frame was dismantled in 1975 and bits of it were reassembled to make up the temporary Holborn frame. I very much doubt it is the original lower end levers as they were push-pull and these are full stroke. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 14, 2008 20:12:38 GMT
That's why I asked.  The 1 - 11 numbering as painted on the frame would date from the Holborn era, rather than NC. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2008 0:56:22 GMT
Indeed, and Lever #4 on the current frame was obviously previously #14 (the number is offset to the right on the plate and the old '1' is just about visible).
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I'd be interested to see exactly what the text reads; as I've a sneaking suspicion about special/goods trains being able to be described on/off the Aldwych branch. At least with the 'B' blockshelf you can use the existing holes as registry marks to match the equipment back up to the original position. Have you found the Aldwych bell-push (as shewn in the anorakheaven picture)?
