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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 11:54:17 GMT
Hi, I'm a children's book author (my debut novel will be published in the UK in January) who is using the Tube as the setting for an action scene in my current work in progress.
Since I live in Canada and my notes on my recent research trip to London weren't quite as comprehensive as they should have been, I'm hoping that folks here can help me out by answering a few questions...
1. My hero is boarding the Tube at London Bridge, headed for Euston. As the train pulls up to the platform, what announcement would he hear? (I'm guessing it's just "Mind the Gap", but I'd be glad to be corrected on this.)
2. The hero gets onto the train and finds his seat while the doors are still open. Approximately how long (in seconds) would pass until the doors shut and the train begins to move out of the station?
3. Suddenly, everything stops -- the train and the passengers, frozen in time. (Yes, this is a fantasy novel.) A magical villain pops up to attack my hero and they scuffle a bit before the hero manages to disarm the villain and break his spell -- it's at this point that the train begins to move. The villain then bolts the length of the carriage, forces the doors open, and leaps out onto the very end of the platform. (I hope this is at least somewhat plausible -- if not, please let me know!)
a. Forcing the doors in this way would immediately engage the emergency break and stop the train, is that correct?
b. How long would the stopped train then be forced to wait until it could proceed? What would be done by way of investigating such an incident? Would the track be inspected? The passengers in the carriage questioned as to what had gone on?
Your help will be greatly appreciated!
Thank you, -- RJA
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Post by subwayrail on Sept 27, 2008 13:54:18 GMT
1. Not sure. Hopefully assistance will arrive soon.
2. Assuming it is not rush hour and the starter signal is clear, about thirty seconds from stop to start. Busy platforms may require longer. At peak times your hero is unlikely to find a seat.
3. The doors have interlocks which prevent them being opened by more than about four inches. But if your villain has super strength he could overcome the interlocks and force his way out, perhaps even dislodging the door from the runners.
a. No. Or maybe yes. It depends. If any door opens by even a very small amount, all of the motors will cut out and the driver will lose the "doors closed visual" indicator (colloquially called the "pilot light"). The train would still coast. He/she would manually apply the brake (normal or emergency) if this situation is more than momentary. Somebody would probably pull the alarm handle, which automatically applies maximum normal braking, but with part of the train still in the platform the driver would slam the handle to emergency. Northern Line trains are fitted with in-cab CCTV showing a split exterior view from the platform cameras. The driver would apply the emergency brake if he/she saw anyone leap from the train.
b. Hopefully someone with experience of dealing with serious incidents will answer this one in more detail. In reality, if the train is damaged or considered to be a crime scene, it would be taken out of service. Also, since it is blocking the line, the whole Northern Line City Branch (also known as the Bank Branch) would be suspended northbound until it could be moved.
Remember it is a story. Don't let inconvenient and little known facts get in the way of telling it. I hereby grant you sufficient artistic license. ;D
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Sept 27, 2008 17:02:45 GMT
Another author is here! Nice to hear from you. Whilst my writing career goes back to 1974, it is all strictly non-fiction. Sounds a nice story.
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Post by stuartpalmer on Sept 27, 2008 18:55:35 GMT
1. There's no "mind the gap" on this platform. Outside of rush hour there would be no announcement - all you would get is the train information board saying "Stand back - train approaching". The roar of the train in the tunnel and the reflection of its lights on the platform tunnel ceiling would be the first physical indication of its arrival.
In rush hour there'd be the usual barrage of (non-automated) "stand behind the yellow line" and "let passengers OFF the train first" announcements.
2. Bear in mind that just before the doors start to close there's a high-pitched bleeping noise for about 5 seconds. In rush hour the platform is packed and the chance of getting a seat is zero!
3. If we're talking about the last coach in the train, bear in mind there isn't a door at the very end. The end of the train is taken up by the driver's cab. Double-leaf doors are about 1/3 of thr way back. On other coaches, the doors at the ends are single-leaf.
Hope this helps and good luck!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 2:15:33 GMT
Thanks so much, subwayrail and stuartpalmer for the help you've given so far, and to Oracle for the welcome! Yes, I definitely wasn't planning to have this scene take place during rush hours, as my hero and villain would have no room to fight. But that's good to know about the interlocks on the doors, and to be reminded about the bleeping. I hope someone else can weigh in with info about how such an incident would be investigated!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 30, 2008 3:25:56 GMT
2. The hero gets onto the train and finds his seat while the doors are still open. Approximately how long (in seconds) would pass until the doors shut and the train begins to move out of the station? About 15 to 20 seconds is the norm - the aim is for a station stop to average 30 seconds from wheel stop to wheel start. I know it doesn't seem like a long time when you read it, but try timing it just by looking at a watch or clock wherever you are right now.....it's actually longer than you may realise! 3. Suddenly, everything stops -- the train and the passengers, frozen in time. (Yes, this is a fantasy novel.) A magical villain pops up to attack my hero and they scuffle a bit before the hero manages to disarm the villain and break his spell -- it's at this point that the train begins to move. The villain then bolts the length of the carriage, forces the doors open, and leaps out onto the very end of the platform. (I hope this is at least somewhat plausible -- if not, please let me know!) To get the doors open enough to be able to exit the train would take some doing. Each line's stock varies (by design), but I don't believe it's likely in reality on any of LU's stocks. On the point of interlocks - these do not form part of the door mechanism in a mechanical sense........they are electrical contacts which are part of the system detecting whether a door is open or closed. As previously mentioned though, artistic licence is a wonderful tool a. Forcing the doors in this way would immediately engage the emergency break and stop the train, is that correct? As already answered, no brakes apply but the motors will drop out causing the train to 'coast'. b. How long would the stopped train then be forced to wait until it could proceed? As we've already established, the train wouldn't be stopped. That said, if the driver looses his/her 'pilot light' (indication doors are closed) for a prolonged period, then it's quite possible they will stop the train and investigate. If your villain has got out quickly, then the doors will likely spring back closed behind them - so the driver will get the pilot light back quickly; will assume the interlocks are playing up and can simply carry on. If there really was a door open and/or someone had left the train, you'd most likely have a passenger operate the emergency alarm........now that will apply an emergency brake What would be done by way of investigating such an incident? Would the track be inspected? The passengers in the carriage questioned as to what had gone on? It all depends on the circumstances. A report of someone leaving the train between stations would definitely lead to a track inspection - that could be done with the power off and staff walking the track, or the next train may go through the area slowly......like I say, circumstances dictate. I would imagine that in your scenario, the staff walking the track option is most likely. The passengers may well get asked a few questions by the driver or station staff, but it wouldn't be anything too deep or meaningful.........if the situation were that serious, it's the Police's job to formally interrogate!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 12:48:32 GMT
Colin wrote:
Do you just mean that the person would have to have superhuman strength to force the doors wide enough to jump through (but that afterward the doors would spring back)? Or that there is some reason it would actually be impossible to do so without physically breaking the doors?
This is a small, slim, quick-moving person with more than human strength, if that helps.
Thanks for the thorough answer!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 30, 2008 14:25:30 GMT
I'm no stock expert (Solidbond would happily confirm that), and my knowledge is really limited to what I drive (C & D stocks) - but essentially you are pushing the door against a spring that is strong enough to keep it closed. I would imagine other stocks are similar though I don't really know much about the externally hung doors on the 92, 95 & 96 stocks.
As your story is on the Northern line, you are on 95 stock..........unless of course it's set in some other period, then you might have an older type of train......
Look at it this way, if it were that easy to open a door simply by pushing/pulling them, do you not think that would be considered a serious safety issue?
So yes, in a nutshell, some special magic/power is likely to be needed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 14:38:05 GMT
On Piccadilly Line stock, the easiest way out of the train would actually be to break the emergency glass to let you into the driver's cab, then open the M door. (Apparently breaking the glass is actually rather difficult to do... though still probably easier than forcing a passenger door.) The downside to this would be that the M door opens over the rails, not onto the platform.. I have no idea personally if London Bridge has a suicide pit or not; presumably yes, but it wouldn't be impossible to jump from the M door onto the platform. Opening the door to the cab would set off an alarm in the driver's cab (an intruder alert), but I don't think it would initially apply the brakes or cut out motors - as mentioned above, it's likely a passenger would pull down an emergency handle, though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 15:48:00 GMT
You are all fabulous. I still don't have an answer to my question about what investigation would be done (if any), but this helps a lot. Thanks so much!
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Oct 3, 2008 22:49:36 GMT
In answer to the question about the investigation, it would depend really on what actually had happened Therefore, whilst I appreciate you don't want to give away the story, it is difficult to determine the details of the follow-up investigation. Certainly CCTV would be viewed, both from the station and the train, as well as downloading any available information from the train. Witness statements may be required, depending on the circumstances of the incident and whether the British Transport Police (BTP) were involved. If BTP were involved, they may decide it is a crime scene and thus follow their procedures for securing evidence etc. As you can see, it is difficult to determine exactly what would happen, as every incident is different, but I hope this will be of some use to you
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 15:17:42 GMT
solidbond, thanks for your response. There's really nothing more spoilerish to say about the incident -- just a scuffle with my hero at the back of the (not too crowded) carriage, then the villain breaking free, escaping down the train and forcing the doors open so he can leap out onto the platform at the last second and escape. I've already established in this scene that the other passengers don't notice the fight (because they're under a spell when it happens). So the only criminal activity they or the train driver would be aware of is the villain jumping out the door, and that's the part I'm talking about when I'm asking if there'd be an investigation. What I'm getting after all this discussion is that if my slim, fast-moving, inhumanly strong villain could force the doors open in such a way that the doors would automatically spring back after he leaped, the train might stop temporarily while the driver tried to figure out what had happened. But once it was clear that the doors he'd opened were closed now, and that my villain had made the jump safely and vanished in the crowd, the train would probably just continue on its way. Is that right? At least I'm hoping that's the case, as it will make my life much easier.
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Post by Dmitri on Oct 9, 2008 8:02:20 GMT
But once it was clear that the doors he'd opened were closed now, and that my villain had made the jump safely and vanished in the crowd, the train would probably just continue on its way. Is that right? It is difficult to say whether it is right or wrong as it never happened on the LU . What about the following sequence of events: 1) the train starts to move; 2) villain forces door open and escapes from the train; 3) driver notices that motors dropped out due to the loss of the pilot light; 3) doors close; 4) pilot light turns on again, driver thinks it was just a momentary quirk caused by acceleration (it actually happens sometimes) and moves on; 5) people on the board are too surprised to pull a handle, so PEA is not activated; 6) train disappears in the tunnel; 7) villain vanishes in the crowd; 8) someone on the platform notices, and police starts to investigate the event (I don't think the track inspection would happen as villain escaped on the platform and not into the tunnel).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2008 0:57:21 GMT
Sounds good to me, Dmitri! Thanks for your help.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 15:14:06 GMT
1. On the platform, he would hear "Mind the Gap". On the train, he would hear that the station was London Bridge, and where the Northern line train was going. 2. Depends on how big crowds are, and whether there is disruption to service, but generally between 5 and 30 seconds. 3a. Not sure 3b. Service would be suspended to get the BTP (British Transport Police) and station staff down to investigate. Passengers would almost certainly be questioned. BTW, nice to see that a story is being set on the tube!
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