Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2005 15:02:01 GMT
I noticed the other day they now leave the tunnel lights on around St Mary's curve on District and ELL all the time.
Why?
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Sept 24, 2005 10:53:12 GMT
Our drivers of various lines may be able to confirm this, but it would appear that we have reverted to having the lights on over junctions again. Normally those orange coloured ones.
Baker Street junction has currently also got it's lights on throughout the day.
Not sure of the reason, but we had it a few years back and then one day they were all switched off. Now maybe they are switching them all back on again!
|
|
DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
|
Post by DWS on Sept 24, 2005 10:56:30 GMT
Our drivers of various lines may be able to confirm this, but it would appear that we have reverted to having the lights on over junctions again. Normally those orange coloured ones. Baker Street junction has currently also got it's lights on throughout the day. Not sure of the reason, but we had it a few years back and then one day they were all switched off. Now maybe they are switching them all back on again! May be its to help the Drivers to see which way the points are set  |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Sept 24, 2005 11:01:52 GMT
May be its to help the Drivers to see which way the points are set Ahem. Some of them would need more than a few orange lights  ;D |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2005 17:18:55 GMT
Praed Street Junction (where the H&C and District merge between Paddington and Edgware Road) has also had the lights on in recent weeks.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Sept 24, 2005 18:41:42 GMT
Citysig is right. Junctions were always illuminated at all times in years past
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2005 22:48:41 GMT
Baker Street junction has currently also got it's lights on throughout the day. It seems to be since 7/7. Not 100% sure though. The first ones i noticed hwere Aldgate and Edgware Rd as when trains ran again the lighting was on 24/7 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2005 1:15:41 GMT
I think there's a rule somewhere saying that junctions must be illuminated at all times, as I remember an argument on the Jubilee line a few years ago between the line management and the unions about the junction with the Bakerloo line not being illuminated.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196 
|
Post by Tom on Sept 25, 2005 20:45:20 GMT
All our junctions on the Bakerloo were fed with the lighting supply 24/7, whether or not the laps were working was another matter.
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Sept 26, 2005 8:31:02 GMT
It seems to be since 7/7. Not 100% sure though. The first ones i noticed hwere Aldgate and Edgware Rd as when trains ran again the lighting was on 24/7 No I don't think so. Aldgate and Edgware Road may very well have been left on when we re-opened, but Baker Street has only been in the last week or two. I think there's a rule somewhere saying that junctions must be illuminated at all times, as I remember an argument on the Jubilee line a few years ago between the line management and the unions about the junction with the Bakerloo line not being illuminated. I think it's another one of those grey area rules, that seems to rear its head every now and again. I think the last time they were all switched off was due to drivers complaining of the hypnotic effects of travelling through junction areas with the lights on. I give it another few weeks and they'll probably be off again. I'll do some digging at work. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2005 9:53:19 GMT
I think there's a rule somewhere saying that junctions must be illuminated at all times I heard that from a mate on the Northern, at least this has been the general ruling over there since the Camden derailment |
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Sept 26, 2005 10:06:10 GMT
In my day Junctions had overhead lights fixed to the roof of the tunnel. This had two benefits. Firstly they illuminated the whole area of the junctions and secondly the 'strobe' effect of passing lights on the wall was removed..
If they want to save money and still have things lit up why don't they install roof mounted LED's or low volt flourescent tubes?
|
|
|
|
Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 26, 2005 13:05:53 GMT
why don't they install roof mounted LED's or low volt flourescent tubes? I suspect it's because while they're fixed on the tunnel side someone can walk along and replace defective bulbs. If they're fixed to the roof a scaffolding tower (given current H&S) would be needed to reach them. There was a trial with flourescent tubes on the branch between Aldwych and the crossover before it closed. These were on the tunnel wall at a similar height to the ordinary bulbs. |
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Sept 27, 2005 19:08:55 GMT
What happened to the ralbourne wotnot they had in the past that had a jacks on it that raised a sort of tower to get up to the roof? The tower was on a sort of scissors mounting that they turned a handle for that elevated it. It was than locked and the work done then unlocked and wound down again.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Oct 9, 2005 12:29:15 GMT
Whilst wallowing in my flu misery this morning I was looking through my old rules and regulations and notes (Yep it's that bad) and I found the reason why junctions in tunnels should be illuminated at all times.
As you know most junctions are traversed at reduced speed, in the diverging direction at least and as a safety measure there should be illumination so that the driver can see that the points are correctly set for his route of travel.
This is even more important in the event of signal/points failures when they have to be secured and there may be men on the track working.
So if a junction has no lights lit then I would report it to the old man and get them switched on as in the event of a mishap in this health and safety concious world the first person they will blame is the driver.
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Oct 10, 2005 10:31:26 GMT
Failures I can understand, but the need to check the way each set is laying under normal condtions? Surely the green light (plus where needed any route indicator) at the start of such a route would give some indication of what was to be expected.
This may be the ruling, but it still makes me wonder why we went through the phase of not needing the lights on - and it wasn't just the odd junction, it was everywhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Oct 10, 2005 10:35:34 GMT
Yep, puzzling that? But the possiblity is that some jobsworth was looking to save shareholders money on electric bills until someone realised that it WAS a ruling and so it had to be obeyed.
As for the green light point. Yes it does tell you that all is OK but most drivers do in fact have a quick glance down on the track to see the lie of the points are correct. Or they did in my day. There have been wrong side failures in the past.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2005 13:29:39 GMT
To be honest, I very rarely check the lie of the points over signalled moves where an indicator of some sort is illuminated. If I ever get to the point where I don't trust what the signal is telling me, I may as well stop driving trains because I'll be a bag of nerves and be driving slower than a Circle on a Sunday afternoon!
The only time I check the lie of the points is during failure conditions (either points have ben scotched and clipped, or working under 'route card' conditions), or when entering a depot I always make sure the points are set the way they're supposed to be... It wouldn't be the first time I've been asked to stable on a certain road in Ealing Common and ended up on a different one!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2005 15:26:08 GMT
if the points were wired the wrong way there would be alot of explaining to do and investigating as this is a irregualitly (cant spell it) the points would be taken out of commision clipped and scotched and the WKR (Point Indicating Relay) proberly pegged (forced fed) one way usually normal. but if you get a green 100% the points would be laying in the correct position or if a harbour light failed you would get a red but the reminder of the harbour lights alight this still means the points are laying the right way and the only reason why you dont get a green is because there not enough current to pick a UECR (Route Light Checking Relay) which check to see if theres no less then 3 filaments working if theres less u get a red but harbour lights alight, the signal has not failed as such it just saying theres a bulb out but in the situation and the train has to take that route its the normal procedure as if it has failed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2005 17:42:52 GMT
but if you get a green 100% the points would be laying in the correct position or if a harbour light failed you would get a red but the reminder of the harbour lights alight this still means the points are laying the right way and the only reason why you dont get a green is because there not enough current to pick a UECR (Route Light Checking Relay) which check to see if theres no less then 3 filaments working if theres less u get a red but harbour lights alight, the signal has not failed as such it just saying theres a bulb out but in the situation and the train has to take that route its the normal procedure as if it has failed. What are the procedures for passing a controlled junction signal with facing points under such conditions? Obviously the driver would need to talk to the Line Controller to get authority to pass the first time, but how many subsequent times would be permitted before the points would have to be scotched&clipped, even if the points themselves might not be at fault? |
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196
|
Post by Tom on Oct 10, 2005 17:49:19 GMT
The driver needs to speak to the signal operator and the points MUST be secured. A friend of mine who is a Station Supervisor on the Met had that scenario at Watford South Junction and had to go and secure up.
If you had an irregularity with the points they would not normally be false fed, the idea is to firstly ensure all signals reading over the points concerned are remaining at danger, and secondly try and preserve the evidence.
|
|
|
|
Post by q8 on Oct 10, 2005 18:02:34 GMT
Procedures have changed a little since my day obviously. While we were not INSTRUCTED to observe the lie of the points we were told to 'have a quick shufty as you come to them'
Some points are uncontrolled like Barking flyover and minories junction and having a peep at them would tell you which service had preceded you over them. They once had a points failure somewhere and they were seen to be badly misshapen The driver of the last train to pass over them swore that they were lying in the wrong postition and they said he was imagining things.
Yet he was right. They HAD been lying wrong and the wheel marks proved it as the train had nearly been derailed busting through them. Yet there had been no red signals nor wrong indications in the signal cabin. We never found out what had happened as they hushed it up.
|
|
|
|
Post by c5 on Oct 10, 2005 21:19:40 GMT
but if you get a green 100% the points would be laying in the correct position or if a harbour light failed you would get a red but the reminder of the harbour lights alight this still means the points are laying the right way and the only reason why you dont get a green is because there not enough current to pick a UECR (Route Light Checking Relay) which check to see if theres no less then 3 filaments working if theres less u get a red but harbour lights alight, the signal has not failed as such it just saying theres a bulb out but in the situation and the train has to take that route its the normal procedure as if it has failed. What are the procedures for passing a controlled junction signal with facing points under such conditions? Obviously the driver would need to talk to the Line Controller to get authority to pass the first time, but how many subsequent times would be permitted before the points would have to be scotched&clipped, even if the points themselves might not be at fault? The Line Controller is NEVER allowed to authorise any train past a signal at danger. If it is an Auto signal, the Train Operator has their own authority, if it is a Semi, then Authorisation must come fro the Service Operator via an Operating Official or the Signal Telephone (pain in the rear if there has been a SPAD and the T/Op cant get to it  ) If there are any points involved, they must be secured by Scotch & Clip. If Route Secure Visual is working or it is in a Route Card area, this can be used instead. Or the train can be set back under a Wrong Direction Move |
|
;D
)
