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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 14:08:42 GMT
I understand that the Victoria line 1967ts will eventually be cascaded to the Bakerloo when they're rplaced on the Vic by the 09ts. However, I've hear that they will only be used in the middle of each train in the same way that 72 stock is used on the Victoria. Now, I can understand why this is the case when the 72 stock is used on the vic due to the lack of ATO equipment - but surely this wouldn't be an issue the other way round? Is there any reason why whole units of 67ts couldn't run on the Bakerloo in manual operation (albeit in 7-car form)? All they need added is at-seat door controls for the driver (never undertood why they weren't fitted to them on the Vic, tbh). Or am I missing something really obvious?  |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 16, 2008 14:48:18 GMT
I believe that in manual operation mode 1967 stock trains can only run at a very slow speed - something like 5mph iirc.
If turning this off was a simple matter of flipping a switch then I expect that they wouldn't be planning on operating them in the middle of trains only on the Bakerloo. This is just a guess though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 15:01:27 GMT
The design of the 67ts cab (without the conventional dead man's handle) would make it more difficult/expensive to convert it to be a driving cab. The 72ts are used as block trains in any case as some DMs have become UNDMs as they don't have the refurbished cab.
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Post by 21146 on Aug 16, 2008 19:41:08 GMT
Well of course one ran at full speed, manually-driven, during the Auto-Tube Rambler LT railtour c1979. Although there was a tripcock fitted (as happened for trips to Acton works), there was no 'deadman' so two drivers were provided. Can you imagine the H&S fanatics allowing passenger operation in this mode today? www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2650152427/sizes/l/ |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 16, 2008 20:01:41 GMT
If the 67/72 hybrids go to the Bakerloo they will run the opposite way round to what they do now.It'll be 67 cabs in the middle and 72 cabs leading,after being upgraded to 72Mk2 standard.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 20:58:16 GMT
there was no 'deadman' so two drivers were provided. Can you imagine the H&S fanatics allowing passenger operation in this mode today? Can't they use a secondman now (like when the tripcocks on the Northern Line failed?) |
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Post by 21146 on Aug 16, 2008 23:49:26 GMT
there was no 'deadman' so two drivers were provided. Can you imagine the H&S fanatics allowing passenger operation in this mode today? Can't they use a secondman now (like when the tripcocks on the Northern Line failed?) Yes I guess. And of course "Steam on the Met" locos never had a deadman fitted either. But knowing LU "risk assessment" procedures which always seem to assume the worst... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 23:55:53 GMT
there was no 'deadman' so two drivers were provided. Can you imagine the H&S fanatics allowing passenger operation in this mode today? Can't they use a secondman now (like when the tripcocks on the Northern Line failed?) They can, but I doubt LU will want or be able to have half a dozen trains going around permanantly with 2 drivers on board. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 23:58:27 GMT
Can't they use a secondman now (like when the tripcocks on the Northern Line failed?) Yes I guess. And of course "Steam on the Met" locos never had a deadman fitted either. But knowing LU "risk assessment" procedures which always seem to assume the worst... I don't blame LU as they have had a few 'worst possible scenario' disasters (King's Cross, Moorgate). Can't they use a secondman now (like when the tripcocks on the Northern Line failed?) They can, but I doubt LU will want or be able to have half a dozen trains going around permanantly with 2 drivers on board. Weren't staff from stations used previously when radios failed and the Northern Line tripcock failures? It's still not an economical use of staff though  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 0:17:50 GMT
Weren't staff from stations used previously when radios failed and the Northern Line tripcock failures? It's still not an economical use of staff though No idea, when I have had station staff as a second man they have been unaware of why they are there, whereas a second driver would understand he is there to stop the train if the driver doesn't or can't. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Aug 17, 2008 0:52:46 GMT
From what's been said the 67 stock will not go to the Bakerloo and the Watford (re)extension will not take place until the upgrade!!!
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Post by ruislip on Aug 17, 2008 2:55:54 GMT
the Watford (re)extension will not take place until the upgrade!!! When you say "upgrade," are you referring to the 'Loo getting new trains? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Aug 17, 2008 10:04:26 GMT
Well yes, but also the upgrade includes new track, signalling etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 19:56:55 GMT
yeah but even if the watford re-extention dosent happen they might need a few cars of 67 to back up the fleet as the 72's will be around for a while
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metman
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Post by metman on Aug 17, 2008 20:40:51 GMT
They would need those cars, but senior management have delayed the Watford extension till the upgrade!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 22:37:21 GMT
Ummm, are there any plans for a refurfb or REALLY REALLY deep clean on the Bakerloo trains anytime before 2019? I can't imagine them going that long in their current state. Is it just me or does it seem that the Bakerloo is getting the short end of things when it comes to upgrades?
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metman
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Post by metman on Aug 18, 2008 7:20:36 GMT
I believe the plan is to go for a deep clean! Remember, the previous stock also got an extra heavy overhaul too!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 11:38:18 GMT
Thanks for the replies, everyone.
From what's been said, it's beginning to look like it's a non-issue anyway if the transfer of the 67ts to the Bakerloo doesn't go ahead. Which would be a shame, really, as I had hoped the 67s would be around in some form for a while longer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 17:28:47 GMT
I think the tickford refurb actually made them look older and it was nasty
then metronet messed them up more
they need another one really and better maintenance
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 17:45:47 GMT
I think the tickford refurb actually made them look older and it was nasty then metronet messed them up more they need another one really and better maintenance I think the refurb made them look stunning for a while, but they then quickly seemed to get really grubby and they also seemed to age far worse than they did in their pre-refurbed state. I think the 67 and 72mk2 stocks are still the best on the deep-level lines, though. |
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Post by astock5000 on Aug 18, 2008 19:17:57 GMT
I think the 67 and 72mk2 stocks are still the best on the deep-level lines, though. I think the 1973TS are better. 67/72TS seem old and are uncomfortable, and they don't have end windows. |
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Post by metman on Aug 18, 2008 20:28:27 GMT
They don't have end windows because if was going to cost too much. I like the 67/72 lots too. The PCM is much more lively!
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Post by mowat on Aug 18, 2008 20:52:01 GMT
Some think that a working example of 1967/72 stock should be preserved in working order, so how about the Aldwych 72MKI unit. After all, most would prefer to have a pre refurb example, rather then a refurb.
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metman
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Post by metman on Aug 18, 2008 21:59:00 GMT
Great idea! That would be fantastic!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 9:50:47 GMT
I think the 67 and 72mk2 stocks are still the best on the deep-level lines, though. I think the 1973TS are better. 67/72TS seem old and are uncomfortable, and they don't have end windows. I would have agreed with you about the 1973ts until their refurb. Up till then they felt like flashy, updated 67/72 stocks. I also liked the transverse seating - which was lost upon the refurb of the 73ts but not on the 67/72mk2ts. I think the refurbs are a strange phenomenon - they all looked nice when they were first done but seemed to have become drab and worn-looking far quicker than when they were in their pre-refurbed state. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 17:29:23 GMT
The design of the 67ts cab (without the conventional dead man's handle) would make it more difficult/expensive to convert it to be a driving cab. Doesn't the Vigilance Button fullfil the function of dead man's handle on the 67ts? |
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Post by setttt on Aug 20, 2008 17:37:19 GMT
The design of the 67ts cab (without the conventional dead man's handle) would make it more difficult/expensive to convert it to be a driving cab. Doesn't the Vigilance Button fullfil the function of dead man's handle on the 67ts? Yes it does, but it only works in Coded and Slow Manual modes, not tripcock mode. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 17:38:36 GMT
Doesn't the Vigilance Button fullfil the function of dead man's handle on the 67ts? Yes it does, but it only works in Coded and Slow Manual modes, not tripcock mode. Could it not be re-engineered to work in tripcock mode? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 17:39:45 GMT
The vigilance button has to be held continuously and is quite uncomfortable to use. It would be easier to put the 72ts DMs on the end of the trains.
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