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Post by thirstquensher on Aug 15, 2008 8:24:17 GMT
Has anybody else noticed the retro-isation of New Johnston? Look around you and will spot instantly the change to the digits 1, 4 and 7 back to the way they looked in ("Old") Johnston.
If you haven't, I've illustrated the changes on my homepage (tfl.moonfruit.com).
Does anyone here know the reason for this?
Personally I'd love to see all TfL signage go back to the LUL style of the 70s and 80s, but I don't hold out much hope for that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 11:39:46 GMT
It would probably be even better if it went back to the way it was designed in the 1930s.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 14:00:22 GMT
Actually there are offcially 3 versions of the Johnston font. The original which was deisgned back in the 1916 by Edward Johnston. This was in use until the late 1970s when London Underground had the font modernised by Banks and Miles to the New Johnston font which is in use today. The 3rd version is also in use today and is the Johnston Delf Smith which was specially designed about 3 years ago for use on historic signs - this is the version you probably saw. I have attached the link on the TfL webpage to the fonts: www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/fonts/It's too bad that only people who work for TfL or are doing work for TfL have access to these fonts. |
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Post by thirstquensher on Aug 16, 2008 14:36:06 GMT
I don't think this is the answer. I've long seen examples of the "historic" font on signage replaced on a like-for-like basis (which must have been Delf Smith) and also on bus destination blinds (and well before 3 years ago too, I should add). That's not the case here though.
What I'm talking about is New Johnston, but with only certain characters replaced. And this is now in universal use across all new posters and signage from LUL, LOG and DLR.
The mystery remains as to the reasoning behind this, what it represents, and whether these changes are intended to go further at any stage.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 16:18:59 GMT
The New Johnston font has had 3 variations of the electronic format. The 1st is the New Johnston introduced in 1998, the 2nd is the NJTFL font introduced in 2000 and the 3rd is the NJFont introduced in 2004.
Over the last few years alot of the TfL publications have used the 1st two types of font, but recently they have started using the 3rd font type more which I had noticed before has alot of the variations in numbers and commas etc.
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Post by thirstquensher on Aug 16, 2008 16:53:05 GMT
 This differs from the versions I have used in my work. The first New Johnston was from the early 90s, and had an incorrect character set coding - it was coded as an 'Arabic' font instead of a 'Western' font which meant if you typed in it, then changed the font, it would change to a series of squares. The ASCII codes for each letter would be totally wrong - in fact, I ended up writing an ASCII code converter to rescue documents of this sort, because it was found they couldn't be searched. You'd try and search for a word in Microsoft Word, it would say "No Matches Found", even though you could easily see the word there. This was why the NJ---98 series came out, which addressed this problem. The macro I wrote converted each pre-98 character to a 98 one and changed the font as follows: Pre-98 font -> Post-98 font ======== ========= NJLnewjohnston -> NJLight98 NJMnewjohnston -> NJMedium98 NJBnewjohnston -> NJBook98 The font set was indeed changed again in 2004 as you state to the "NJFont" series. I don't see what was different about it though, apart from being produced by a different company. Perhaps it has some extra symbols. However, none of those variations have the "Old Johnston" style digits; the second and the third versions of the font are practically identical and neither have any discernable differences in the digits whatsoever. No versions of any of these three NJ sets have had the 'toothpick' number 1 or the 'triangular' number 4. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 19:12:29 GMT
Then I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it ? Very strange.................. Do you have the official TfL NJ 98 series of font yourself ?
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Post by 21146 on Sept 10, 2008 9:23:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 10:14:17 GMT
I think the new (old) 1 without the serif is an improvement.
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Post by 21146 on Sept 10, 2008 10:16:48 GMT
Recent Time Table Notices also have the new, new, "1".
Not so sure about what's happening to the "4" as I've not seen this used recently.
Presumably any signage at Wood Lane and Shepherd's Bush LU/LO stations will be too far advanced in design to be changed now?
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Post by 21146 on Sept 10, 2008 10:18:20 GMT
It would probably be even better if it went back to the way it was designed in the 1930s. You can't have upper case signage nowadays because, as Alan Williams has said, "modern graphic designers are afraid of capital letters". |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 11:20:55 GMT
one particular night out of boredom at work i found out that ms office applications on our pcs have the johnston fonts installed
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 10, 2008 16:23:55 GMT
Recent Time Table Notices also have the new, new, "1". Yup, I've noticed that too - however it doesn't seem to be universal. I suppose it is dependent on the whim of the phototypesetter. one particular night out of boredom at work i found out that ms office applications on our pcs have the johnston fonts installed Funnily enough so do some of mine at my work too! ;D Wasn't me that put them on there. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 10, 2008 20:56:36 GMT
Where can one obtain the Johnston fonts, without paying an extortionate sum? It would only be for internal use for things like maps. Gill Sans is a decent substitute (seeing as its related), but its not as heavy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 21:05:29 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Sept 10, 2008 23:03:05 GMT
Is there any way to get that font without having to install adware?
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 11, 2008 1:53:07 GMT
Where can one obtain the Johnston fonts, without paying an extortionate sum? It would only be for internal use for things like maps. Gill Sans is a decent substitute (seeing as its related), but its not as heavy. Come, come: Benedict! Gill Sans is a mere arriviste - Johnston was the wellspring of all modern sans fonts, Eric Gill learnt his trade from the work of Edward Johnston (born in Uruguay - downcountry for orchids); (Arthur) Eric (Rowton) Gill was apprenticed to Johnston - did you know that he (Gill) also drew the Jubilee typeface and had a very murky later life? |
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Post by compsci on Sept 11, 2008 5:45:45 GMT
I think that the museum shop will sell it to you on a CD. I doubt that it's been updated for a while though, so no idea if it still works.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2008 10:19:52 GMT
Is there any way to get that font without having to install adware? I just clicked the link and it download a zip file containing truetype font files. Nothing to install. Although I am on a Mac. The '1' in it is just a rectangle, though. No serif or cut at the top. |
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Post by Rich32 on Sept 11, 2008 10:59:09 GMT
Is there any way to get that font without having to install adware? I just clicked the link and it download a zip file containing truetype font files. Nothing to install. Although I am on a Mac. The '1' in it is just a rectangle, though. No serif or cut at the top. From another mac user - Open the zip file and click on each .ttf icon in turn, this will open up a font book box, just click on the Install Font button on the box and it will be added. When you next open Pages the font is sitting there in your drop down. Hope this helps |
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Post by max on Sept 11, 2008 11:19:24 GMT
Buy this software for $99 and you can make you own Johnston. www.fontlab.com/font-editor/typetool/Actually, its much more helpful that that. Use a (budget) vector graphics package (no need for Illustrator) and open up a pdf file (such as a map), and you should get the option to convert embedded fonts to outlines. These can then be pasted directly into Typetool to recreate the font. Of course, the new creation will need the letters to be spaced and kerned from scratch, that information was lost when the embedded forts were converted, but that's no more than a few hours work. |
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Post by 21146 on Oct 2, 2008 23:13:45 GMT
Next week's Traffic Circular is 41, and both "4" and "1" is in New Johnston modern-style and not "retro". Mind you the "Mayor of London" is still bi-coloured so maybe the message hasn't got through to Operational Standards yet?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2008 22:09:22 GMT
Where can one obtain the Johnston fonts, without paying an extortionate sum? It would only be for internal use for things like maps. Gill Sans is a decent substitute (seeing as its related), but its not as heavy. I've seen them available to download in various places from time to time..... searches....... Most of them can be downloaded (for free) in a .zip file from the files section of the Yahoo group "London-Bus-Blinds". (After some flirtation with New Johnston, representations were made on high and TfL agreed to change the specification for Bus Blinds back to original Johnston - some garages and companies having never switched to New Johnson anyway !) Not sure if you have to login or join the group to use this link finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/london-bus-blinds/files/Fonts/Also in the files section of this group are some listings of LUL train blind displays. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2008 22:26:40 GMT
The older Johnson type numbers have now appeared on the traffic circular - this weeks' issue 42 has the original style 4, wheras 41 had the "modern" version.
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Post by timbobean on Nov 26, 2008 10:43:23 GMT
Have been doing some research. The Design guides in the Corporate section of the TfL website are being updated to have new new Johnston font in them (slopey 1's etc.). also noticed that the latest Tramlink & Overground timetables, together with the Underground map all have the this latest incarnation. Looks like its here to stay - think it looks very good and its great to see these features back.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 26, 2008 13:21:24 GMT
Mrfs: Very true indeed; Gill was a true experimenter....
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Post by 21146 on Nov 26, 2008 13:29:20 GMT
What with the new silhouette roundels speared by poles outside Shepherd's Bush, Wood Lane, St.James's Park and South Woodford stations; they'll be calling it "London Transport" next...
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 26, 2008 13:42:06 GMT
Mrfs: Very true indeed; Gill was a true experimenter.... Indeed, best not to mention his sister or his dog, eh? |
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This differs from the versions I have used in my work.
