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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 13:39:35 GMT
The signal at east putney westboung is something like 3560, is this the only draw up on national rail?
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Post by District Dave on Aug 6, 2008 20:18:56 GMT
Certainly the only one on the 'westboung'  !!! National Rail per se don't have draw ups (AFAIK) - it's generally regarded as a hybrid as it's sort of on the cusp between the LU and NR signalling areas. None the less it's a diabolically sighted signal and one that's a real SPAD trap; I believe it was over-run very recently..... The T/Op was involved is a senior person and (IMHO) should have been far more aware of the hazard than appears to have been the case. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 21:02:48 GMT
What's a draw up signal?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 21:06:24 GMT
You draw up to it, and it drops off! [goes green]
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 23:39:16 GMT
None the less it's a diabolically sighted signal and one that's a real SPAD trap; I believe it was over-run very recently..... The T/Op was involved is a senior person and (IMHO) should have been far more aware of the hazard than appears to have been the case. It is indeed a diabolically sighted signal. Hiding in the six foot, it is a ground based signal with small aspects (the only one with either feature that is a running signal passed by us on NR metals). If a train is present on the eastbound platform at East Puntey, then the already poor view is obstructed until the last minute. The signal does have a repeater (on NR metals, but to the LUL signal format - so the preceeding signal will show a green and yellow aspect rather then a seperate banner repeater) however this is so far in rear of the draw up in question, you would not react with immediate braking and it is quite easy to have forgotten that it was showing a green and yellow by the time braking would be called for. I am now very aware (and make trainees aware) of this hazzard, after myself with another member here took a good close view of the red aspect before it dutifully dropped off at very close range ! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2008 0:02:57 GMT
I have to agree that the sighting is terrible - I don't see why it can't be moved to the left hand side of the westbound track. I really scared myself with this one once when a train was leaving the eastbound platform and I had forgotten about the yellow repeater - fortunately I was driving a C stock and the emergency brake was very effective!
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
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Post by Oracle on Aug 7, 2008 8:37:58 GMT
Being interested in such things, is there any way in the future that some kind sould could post a pic of said signal for us lesser mortals' benefit? Obviously Dave has included photos of the LU side on the main site, and there is a signal diagram whith said item shown.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2008 11:11:43 GMT
Sorry to disappoint you chaps, but there are numerous draw up signals across the NR railway. They are performing the same function of allowing trains to draw up to a signal when the full overlap is unavailable and the signal in rear has a delayed yellow clearance to ensure the train is at or nearly at a stand. No specific advice is given for these signals as the aspect sequence is the normal yellow to red but with a reduced overlap available. A good example of this is both up and down fast lines at Watford Junction the platforms are protected by normal homes at full braking distance to the platform starters, but also an additional inner home is provided approx 100 yds on the approach to the platform with the overlap 1/3 into the platform. A train standing in the platform at the starter will normally be clear of the IBJ and the normal home signal will clear when a train is nearly at a stand allowing it to run up to the inner home. This can result in the interesting sight of a train in the platform one at the inner home some 250yds from the one in the platform and a third coming up to the normal home. The additional home is not the norm and normally the normal signalling is at full braking distances wit the draw up or warning applied with the delayed aspect. The Bakerloo has one on the up DC at Harlesden with WS24 capable of a delayed yellow when the signal at Willesden (WS22) has ony a reduced overlap available, but it rarely gets used.
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Post by District Dave on Aug 7, 2008 11:38:00 GMT
Sorry to disappoint you chaps, but there are numerous draw up signals across the NR railway. They are performing the same function of allowing trains to draw up to a signal when the full overlap is unavailable and the signal in rear has a delayed yellow clearance to ensure the train is at or nearly at a stand. No specific advice is given for these signals as the aspect sequence is the normal yellow to red but with a reduced overlap available. A good example of this is both up and down fast lines at Watford Junction the platforms are protected by normal homes at full braking distance to the platform starters, but also an additional inner home is provided approx 100 yds on the approach to the platform with the overlap 1/3 into the platform. A train standing in the platform at the starter will normally be clear of the IBJ and the normal home signal will clear when a train is nearly at a stand allowing it to run up to the inner home. This can result in the interesting sight of a train in the platform one at the inner home some 250yds from the one in the platform and a third coming up to the normal home. The additional home is not the norm and normally the normal signalling is at full braking distances wit the draw up or warning applied with the delayed aspect. The Bakerloo has one on the up DC at Harlesden with WS24 capable of a delayed yellow when the signal at Willesden (WS22) has ony a reduced overlap available, but it rarely gets used. ** Bows to superior knowledge** |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2008 18:54:28 GMT
Thanks for the explanations.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Aug 11, 2008 12:58:21 GMT
Sorry to disappoint you chaps, but there are numerous draw up signals across the NR railway. They are performing the same function of allowing trains to draw up to a signal when the full overlap is unavailable and the signal in rear has a delayed yellow clearance to ensure the train is at or nearly at a stand. No specific advice is given for these signals as the aspect sequence is the normal yellow to red but with a reduced overlap available. A good example of this is both up and down fast lines at Watford Junction the platforms are protected by normal homes at full braking distance to the platform starters, but also an additional inner home is provided approx 100 yds on the approach to the platform with the overlap 1/3 into the platform. A train standing in the platform at the starter will normally be clear of the IBJ and the normal home signal will clear when a train is nearly at a stand allowing it to run up to the inner home. This can result in the interesting sight of a train in the platform one at the inner home some 250yds from the one in the platform and a third coming up to the normal home. The additional home is not the norm and normally the normal signalling is at full braking distances wit the draw up or warning applied with the delayed aspect. The Bakerloo has one on the up DC at Harlesden with WS24 capable of a delayed yellow when the signal at Willesden (WS22) has ony a reduced overlap available, but it rarely gets used. Presumably, this is a more elegant solution to permissive block? I know that PB is largely confined to freight only lines, but certainly in the mid 90s when I was last there, Stockport station operated permissive block on passenger lines. A second train was admitted to the platform through a red aspect and two white diagonal calling on lights and it was entirely up to the driver to regulate stopping short of the train already in the platform. I know this arrangement exists in many termini where a platform may be half full, or for allowing a loco onto stock already standing, but I haven't seen it anywhere else on running lines, and used for almost every train in the peaks. In respect of the signal in question at East Putney, surely if it is that badly sighted/confusing/the wrong side of the track/with repeater too far in advance then it should be reported and modified. As I understood it, both NR and LU management are desperate to reduce potential SPADS - or is that too simplisitc a view? |
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Post by District Dave on Aug 11, 2008 14:50:44 GMT
In respect of the signal in question at East Putney, surely if it is that badly sighted/confusing/the wrong side of the track/with repeater too far in advance then it should be reported and modified. It has been and to date there is no resighting planned for it AFAIK. As I understood it, both NR and LU management are desperate to reduce potential SPADS - or is that too simplisitc a view? No - not at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 18:14:48 GMT
In respect of the signal in question at East Putney, surely if it is that badly sighted/confusing/the wrong side of the track/with repeater too far in advance then it should be reported and modified. As I understood it, both NR and LU management are desperate to reduce potential SPADS - or is that too simplisitc a view? They are, but for some reason LU seem to think that money is better spent on posters and leaflets with statements of the blindingly obvious for drivers than on signal resiting.  |
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Post by 21146 on Aug 11, 2008 19:11:46 GMT
I was aghast to see that the Northern Line now puts signs in tunnels telling people where to apply the brakes when approaching red signals (a sort of "Command Spot" for manually-driven trains!) and others showing where delta tracks begin and end for speed-controlled signals. Whatever next and what an insult!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 22:26:27 GMT
They are, but for some reason LU seem to think that money is better spent on posters and leaflets with statements of the blindingly obvious for drivers than on signal resiting. I couldn't have said it better ! |
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Post by trainopd78 on Aug 13, 2008 22:57:45 GMT
A second train was admitted to the platform through a red aspect and two white diagonal calling on lights and it was entirely up to the driver to regulate stopping short of the train already in the platform. I know this arrangement exists in many termini where a platform may be half full, or for allowing a loco onto stock already standing, but I haven't seen it anywhere else on running lines, and used for almost every train in the peaks. Bringing this on a District line level, this arrangement exists at Richmond although of course not for District line trains. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 4:51:28 GMT
Bringing this on a District line level, this arrangement exists at Richmond although of course not for District line trains. Thats common place in a lot of locations on network rail, purely because there is much more need for it at termini as a lot of trains are of various lengths and if you were to stick to one train to one platform, there simply would not be enough room. A good example of this is Chilterns Marylebone! |
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