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Post by londonstuff on Jul 16, 2008 20:30:19 GMT
Not sure if this has been covered before, but have been looking at Boris's 'Design a New Bus' thingy (although with a fair bit of scepticism! is.gd/Ve5I've also seen the odd jokey pics of future underground trains because of the obesity crisis from Moley's site: but if Boris had a competition to design a new tube train (and as everyone knows, several new designs are coming), what would people like to see? I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some sort of front carriage view, so you could see the track ahead, like on the DLR, although I'm certain this wouldn't be possible due to someone actually having to drive the trains. I also think it'd be quite good to have joined carriages like the middle bits of bendy buses - are these coming on the new 's' stock? Certainly the 'space train' had a similar idea. Any other ideas - I'm sure drivers would be able to think of loads. Incidentally, with the new Victoria stock and the S stock further into the future, are drivers ever asked to give their opinion so that practical changes can be made?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 21:18:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 22:15:48 GMT
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some sort of front carriage view, so you could see the track ahead, like on the DLR, although I'm certain this wouldn't be possible due to someone actually having to drive the trains. Quite a few metro systems have windows into the drivers compartment. Examples being the newer trains in Madrid and Santiago. Many Japanese trains also have window into the drivers cab. Some metros such as the NYC subway, and Washington Metrorail have half width cabs, with the windows on the other half of the trains end available for passengers. I cant see this happening here though. The s-stock will have a continuous walkway. They are standard on most new metro trains these days. However, the 2009 stock will not have them due to ventilation issues.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 16, 2008 23:42:47 GMT
Some metros such as the NYC subway, and Washington Metrorail have half width cabs, with the windows on the other half of the trains end available for passengers. I cant see this happening here though. The Tyne and Wear Metro trains have this arrangement. It seems to work fine there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 9:09:53 GMT
I would like:
Large doors Large windows High speed Comfortable seats Good DVAs Good PIDs Good HVAC .. and some other things in the inaccessible part of my memory
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Post by Alight on Jul 17, 2008 13:51:05 GMT
Some metros such as the NYC subway, and Washington Metrorail have half width cabs, with the windows on the other half of the trains end available for passengers. I cant see this happening here though. The Tyne and Wear Metro trains have this arrangement. It seems to work fine there. I personally like this concept however it does look slightly prone to vandalism and makes the cars abnormal.
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 17, 2008 16:10:34 GMT
I would like a front end that doesn't look ugly (the front of S stock is ugly because of the red M door and windows at different heights), large windows, and inside, comfortable seats, and no yellow poles!
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Post by Colin on Jul 17, 2008 16:20:34 GMT
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some sort of front carriage view, so you could see the track ahead, like on the DLR, although I'm certain this wouldn't be possible due to someone actually having to drive the trains. Whilst I can quite understand the curiosity of non LU staff, as a driver I don't like it! ;D ;D "scuse me mate, how come you start braking at X point when yesterday it was at Y point?", "How come you went past that red signal?" ( ;D), "You do know that signals green don't ya?", etc, etc.... I also think it'd be quite good to have joined carriages like the middle bits of bendy buses - are these coming on the new 's' stock? Certainly the 'space train' had a similar idea. As already answered, S stock will be 'gangwayed'. Incidentally, with the new Victoria stock and the S stock further into the future, are drivers ever asked to give their opinion so that practical changes can be made? Again, already answered really - there is a huge amount of feedback being pumped into the S stock at the moment.......I really do believe our man (prjb) when he says "this will be the best train ever".
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 17, 2008 16:36:54 GMT
there is a huge amount of feedback being pumped into the S stock at the moment.......I really do believe our man (prjb) when he says "this will be the best train ever". For some reason I don't believe that. The interior doesn't look that good (not enough seats for the Met etc.), and the front is ugly, but maybe a real one will look better than the images on the Metronet website.
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Post by Colin on Jul 17, 2008 18:08:03 GMT
My bad - I should have put that across in terms of the functionality as a train.....looks aren't important in so far as what makes a good train - well not in my opinion anyway.
As for the Met and it's seating saga - the longest journeys are around an hour. Other lines have longer possibilities (ie, the District line end to end is in the region of 1½ hours) - and not all passengers board the train at it's starting point. In fact from the outer ends to the first zone 1 station (ie, Baker Street), you're looking at about 40 minutes. Upminster to Aldgate East is about 40 minutes. Heathrow to Earls Court on the Picc is roughly 40 minutes.
Many, many passengers stand on other LU lines for far longer than I think is reasonable - and I think the Network Rail standard of 20 minutes is pushing it - what is the average standing time on a Met train?
I wouldn't mind betting that when compared to other LU lines, the Met doesn't actually have it that bad. And despite what some may think, the Met isn't a special case or whatever; it's an LU line - just the same as the Central line, the Picc or the District or whatever.
Perhaps we need a new thread, cos I'd love to see a proper case presented that justifies why Met passengers should be considered as exceptionally different to any other LU customer........
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 22:58:37 GMT
I think Met line passengers are more likely to travel for an hour than District passengers, simply because the Met goes from rural and suburban areas into the heart of the city - there are probably quite a few people live in Amersham/Uxbridge and work at Aldgate. Few people will live at Upminster and work in Richmond/Ealing/Wimbledon or vice versa.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 17, 2008 23:01:19 GMT
The same can be said of the Central Line. People live out in the suburbs and work all over central London - commutes from Epping to White City and West Ruislip to Bank for example.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2008 8:03:02 GMT
I wouldn't mind betting that when compared to other LU lines, the Met doesn't actually have it that bad. And despite what some may think, the Met isn't a special case or whatever; it's an LU line - just the same as the Central line, the Picc or the District or whatever. Perhaps we need a new thread, cos I'd love to see a proper case presented that justifies why Met passengers should be considered as exceptionally different to any other LU customer........ Well said! In Japan many commuters travel for over an hour on trains with just longitudinal seating because of the need for extra total train capacity.
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Post by metman on Jul 18, 2008 9:26:31 GMT
Those customers in Upminster say, are rather lucky, most of them would just pop onto the c2c service which takes them straight to the city in about 20 mins! The Met doesn't have a parallel mainline service that also runs straight to the city.
In the past the Met has been a special case line, with very influencial customers. Sadly from my point of view (and being a product of Metroland), this is starting to change!
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2008 10:34:27 GMT
I would like: Large doors Large windows High speed Comfortable seats Good DVAs Good PIDs Good HVAC .. and some other things in the inaccessible part of my memory That would be the 'S' Stock then!
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Post by Chris M on Jul 18, 2008 13:54:36 GMT
Those customers in Upminster say, are rather lucky, most of them would just pop onto the c2c service which takes them straight to the city in about 20 mins! The Met doesn't have a parallel mainline service that also runs straight to the city.! the east end of the Central doesn't have any rail connections until Stratford, tube profile trains with all longitudinal seating, the most uncomfortable seats on the Combine and crush loading in the peaks, shoulders of the peaks and not infrequently on the last few trains either. I'd say that no matter how the S stock turns out, the Met customers will still have it much better than most!
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 18, 2008 16:30:08 GMT
Many, many passengers stand on other LU lines for far longer than I think is reasonable - and I think the Network Rail standard of 20 minutes is pushing it - what is the average standing time on a Met train? I think it is reasonable to stand for 20 minutes or Network Rail (if you are leaning on a door) - that's about how long it takes to get from Watford Junction to Euston. I wouldn't mind betting that when compared to other LU lines, the Met doesn't actually have it that bad. And despite what some may think, the Met isn't a special case or whatever; it's an LU line - just the same as the Central line, the Picc or the District or whatever. Perhaps we need a new thread, cos I'd love to see a proper case presented that justifies why Met passengers should be considered as exceptionally different to any other LU customer........ Met passengers are used to the A stock, and you shouldn't give passengers a worse train that what they have at the moment (passengers don't care about maintenance or things like that, where S stock will be better). Actually, there is a problem with A stock seats. Because they don't have armrests, passengers like to take up too much seat, and the seating layout becomes 2+1, not 3+2.
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Post by prjb on Jul 19, 2008 9:51:06 GMT
I don't believe, but accept that I am bias here, that we are offering the Met customers a worse train. The new trains are brighter, cleaner, more comfortable (newer seats/air suspension/air conditioning) than the 50 year old stock they replace - there is no competition between an 'A' Stock and an 'S' stock quite frankly. The only advantage 'A' Stock has currently is that it, arguably, has more seats although I question this because the tip up seats don't count in my book and the rows of three are not really a row of three in reality.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 12:37:09 GMT
I don't believe, but accept that I am bias here, that we are offering the Met customers a worse train. The new trains are brighter, cleaner, more comfortable (newer seats/air suspension/air conditioning) than the 50 year old stock they replace - there is no competition between an 'A' Stock and an 'S' stock quite frankly. The only advantage 'A' Stock has currently is that it, arguably, has more seats although I question this because the tip up seats don't count in my book and the rows of three are not really a row of three in reality. I have a bad feeling that none of this will matter. If I was a betting man I'd wager that there will be a plurality of customers who will publicly and loudly decry the S stock's seating arrangements and declare in no uncertain terms that they will not stand during the journey from Metro-land to central London. Case in point: www.amersham.org.uk/forum/ipb/index.php?showtopic=1768
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Post by Colin on Jul 19, 2008 16:53:27 GMT
Well I must admit I'm surprised I didn't cause a stir with my anti Met comments!..... Those customers in Upminster say, are rather lucky, most of them would just pop onto the c2c service which takes them straight to the city in about 20 mins! The Met doesn't have a parallel mainline service that also runs straight to the city. Whilst there is indeed c2c, there is also Chiltern..... In the past the Met has been a special case line, with very influencial customers. Sadly from my point of view (and being a product of Metroland), this is starting to change! And about time too - there is nothing wrong with history and heritage, but it's about time "metroland" punters joined the rest of us in 'reality land'!!
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 19, 2008 18:34:02 GMT
Well I must admit I'm surprised I didn't cause a stir with my anti Met comments!..... Those customers in Upminster say, are rather lucky, most of them would just pop onto the c2c service which takes them straight to the city in about 20 mins! The Met doesn't have a parallel mainline service that also runs straight to the city. Whilst there is indeed c2c, there is also Chiltern..... But you can't get Chiltern to the Liverpool Street/Aldgate area.
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 19, 2008 18:38:50 GMT
I don't believe, but accept that I am bias here, that we are offering the Met customers a worse train. The new trains are brighter, cleaner, more comfortable (newer seats/air suspension/air conditioning) than the 50 year old stock they replace - there is no competition between an 'A' Stock and an 'S' stock quite frankly. The only advantage 'A' Stock has currently is that it, arguably, has more seats although I question this because the tip up seats don't count in my book and the rows of three are not really a row of three in reality. Newer seats doesn't mean they will be better. You could say those things about a modern double deck bus - something like an Enviro 400 - but that doesn't mean it is better than a Routemaster, and passengers would prefer it to one.
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Post by 21146 on Jul 19, 2008 18:56:13 GMT
And about time too - there is nothing wrong with history and heritage, but it's about time "metroland" punters joined the rest of us in 'reality land'!!
That comes across as classic modern "transport professional" speak, the same as those TFL "experts" who are so proud of their modern plastic low-floor, reduced-seating, sweatbox d/d's or bendy buses, with minimal external route details but internal non-stop nagging recorded announcements.
Ditto the S Stock, where rather than upgrade all of SSL to Met Line A Stock level (or rather more sensibly offer a bespoke Met version), it's better to dumb the whole lot down to short-hop Circle Line standards.
Little wonder the rail (and bus) industry has such a poor reputation in the public eye.
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Post by Colin on Jul 19, 2008 20:24:58 GMT
And about time too - there is nothing wrong with history and heritage, but it's about time "metroland" punters joined the rest of us in 'reality land'!!That comes across as classic modern "transport professional" speak, the same as those TFL "experts" who are so proud of their modern plastic low-floor, reduced-seating, sweatbox d/d's or bendy buses, with minimal external route details but internal non-stop nagging recorded announcements. Whilst I like your initial impression of who I am, I disagree with the association you make with T fL's current approach. I don't like bendie buses - they are wrong for London. I don't like the policy of minimal details on blinds. I don't like the recorded announcements that announce every bus stop. As for the rest; the description of 'sweatbox' that is often attached to buses always amuses me - yes you could have air con, but it eats up fuel like there's no tomorrow and it's often conveniently forgotten that buses are surrounded by glass.......much the same as green houses.......it's therefore no real surprise that they're going to be hot inside. Even a Routemaster with it's open platform isn't immune to the green house effect. Low floor buses? I really cannot see why that shouldn't be considered a good thing. Reduced seating? I'm gonna need an example here as I don't recall low floor buses having any less seats than a high floor equivalent - and don't forget to compare an equivalent! An 11.3m Leyland National is gonna seat more than a 9m Dart; a single door bus is gonna seat more than a dual door example, etc, etc. Ditto the S Stock, where rather than upgrade all of SSL to Met Line A Stock level (or rather more sensibly offer a bespoke Met version), it's better to dumb the whole lot down to short-hop Circle Line standards. Little wonder the rail (and bus) industry has such a poor reputation in the public eye. For starters, and to quote prjb (who is the real expert on S stock), you cannot pass judgment on something that you haven't seen for yourself yet - none of us have seen the S stock yet and it would be foolish at this stage to second guess what will or won't be. The S stock is meant to be a generic stock for all of the SSR - yes? In comparison to the rest of the SSR, the Met is in the minority, and by quite a large margin. Since when did any organistation pander to a minority and ignore the majority? I've never said that the Met (or indeed the District) should conform to "Circle line standards" - but I do agree with anyone who says "the majority of passengers carried by S stock are X, Y or Z group - we'll design the train according to their needs and the minorities will have to make do". You can never please everyone - as an admin of this forum, I know that only too well - it's the same as anything in life, the majority will always rule.
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Post by c5 on Jul 19, 2008 22:47:26 GMT
Since when did any organistation pander to a minority and ignore the majority? LUL and TfL?
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Post by metman on Jul 19, 2008 23:07:32 GMT
Well I must admit I'm surprised I didn't cause a stir with my anti Met comments!..... Those customers in Upminster say, are rather lucky, most of them would just pop onto the c2c service which takes them straight to the city in about 20 mins! The Met doesn't have a parallel mainline service that also runs straight to the city. Whilst there is indeed c2c, there is also Chiltern..... In the past the Met has been a special case line, with very influencial customers. Sadly from my point of view (and being a product of Metroland), this is starting to change! And about time too - there is nothing wrong with history and heritage, but it's about time "metroland" punters joined the rest of us in 'reality land'!! No chance!
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Post by metman on Jul 19, 2008 23:09:40 GMT
You say the S stock is a generic fleet, but the Met trains will be 8 cars and the rest will be 7 cars, so why not go the whole hog and put in 2+2 seating- to be honest I think it is just some members of the combine being bloody minded!
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 20, 2008 8:32:47 GMT
a little quiz for members: how many seats extra would it add to the 8 car S stock if it were to be 2+2 in a sensible way - so we still have to have a usable gangway and wheelchair spaces
I'm sure prjb will tell us - if he hasn't already (having failed to use search properly!) - in about a week!
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Post by metman on Jul 20, 2008 9:33:58 GMT
316 seats. Not a huge amount more to be honest, probably about 40 seats per car (38 in two of the cars), but if the two longitudianal seats next to the gangway were made into tip-up seats it would add to the standing area which would also include the inter car gangway too! This would provide proper high backed seating for the Met commuter and also provide large(ish) areas to stand in when on the City sections!
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Post by Chris M on Jul 20, 2008 13:31:12 GMT
I don't like the recorded announcements that announce every bus stop. While I agree with you on most of what you said, this is the exception. I like the announcements for each bus stop - when I'm on an unfamiliar route it helps me know where I am and alerts me where my stop is (on buses without them I am very good at going one stop too far). The only route I travel regularly is the 20, and on there I tune them out easily when I don't need them. What I really don't like is the repetition of the number and destination every time someone gets on or off ("20......to......Debden") by the time it's played its far too late for anyone who is on the wrong bus to get off, and when it goes wrong (which it occasionally does) it confuses people. Far better to have this sort of announcement at the bus stop.
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