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Post by adammma on Feb 20, 2008 10:53:09 GMT
Hi everyone,
I'm hoping somebody can confirm or deny this rumour that I've heard regarding the cleaning of the tube tunnels:
Apparently due to the drafts caused by trains travelling through the platforms, hair from people standing on the platform is blown down into the tunnels where it gathers into hair balls which then periodically have to be cleared out. Is there any truth to this rumour?
Many thanks,
Adam
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 10:57:42 GMT
personally i have never seen this but who knows
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 11:20:08 GMT
I think it's true. I seem to remember watching some discussion about it on the TV show QI.
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Post by edwin on Feb 20, 2008 13:36:02 GMT
On a side note, are the tunnels being cleaned as part of the PPP? I can't see air-conditioning working very well on some of the SSLs tunnels...
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 20, 2008 16:06:39 GMT
I've never seen hairballs but tunnel dust comprises mostly human hair and skin cells, quartz, metal filings and of course even today asbestos in small quantities.
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Post by auxsetreq on Feb 20, 2008 16:16:44 GMT
The only hairballs I've seen recently have come out of my cat's gob and onto my lap, but what you say would not suprise me in the least. In fact it would seem to be most likely. Skin, lint from clothing and lord knows what is taken up by the draughts and deposited everywhere, most of it up my hooter. Didn't the fluffers deal with this in the past? Whatever happened to them?
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Post by c5 on Feb 20, 2008 16:35:08 GMT
Tubelines are meant to provide a Tunnel Cleaning vacuum train. Plus cleaning contractors use vacuum cleaners on backpacks!
Of course there needs to be a financial incentive. Station cleaning can earn the Infraco dosh through ambience scores whereas most customers dont see in the tunnels. (Though excess dust is blown onto stations)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 17:09:38 GMT
It's a shame in more than one way the 1938 tunnel cleaner was withdrawn!
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 21, 2008 3:49:22 GMT
It's a shame in more than one way the 1938 tunnel cleaner was withdrawn! I f you mean the original 1930s tunnel cleaning train I was always told that it had been a total failure. By contrast the TCC did work but wasn't it due to be replaced, deemed to be at the end of its working life. I recall it being parked up at Northfields out of use when I was doing regular signal maintenance in the area a few years ago. I'm not sure but I think fluffers disappeared around the time (early 1980s) that LT Cleaning Services moved from being a four station deep clean experiment to a full blown department with hundreds of employees. Fluffers of course did not clean the tunnels, they did work into the tunnels but were not allowed more than 100 yards into a tunnel, apparently this being related to the Mining Acts though I don't know whether this was enshrined in laws applicable to the tube, or was perhaps the subject of union agreements. They were very effective at cleaning up the platform tracks and those parts of the tunnels that they did clean. Of course signals used to clean the tunnels both deliberately and otherwise though in all cases it was relocating the dust rather than relocating it! Signal maintenance AETs used to use the signal compressed air supply to blow signalling equipment clean, that was deliberate. When I worked on signal New Works we would drop the working cables from the bracket runs into balata straps slung from the bottom shelf to clear the runs for recabling during resignalling. It was a filthy job and we used to take a lot of dust home with us in those days as we had to wash our overalls at home. Of course the first train every morning would shift all the disturbed dust pushing it ahead creating dust clouds in the platform areas and covering anything light in little black clumps of packed fine particles. I recall once seeing a woman in a nice white suit waiting for the first train of the day and by the time the train had stopped in the platform it was a speckled white suit. These days signal TOs and their assistants still clean signalling apparatus using an assortment of brushes but again this is disturbance rather than collection. In my last years as a TO down the pipe I saw various methods of cleaning undertaken by contractors including sieving the ballast and using trolley mounted industrial size vacuum cleaners.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 8:39:07 GMT
I've never seen hairballs but tunnel dust comprises mostly human hair and skin cells, quartz, metal filings and of course even today asbestos in small quantities. Hang about. Where did the asbestos come from? The brake blocks were made from cast iron from the earliest days, and I suspect that almost all the dust in the tunnels is bits of cast iron.
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Post by CSLR on Feb 21, 2008 9:50:17 GMT
Hang about. Where did the asbestos come from? The brake blocks were made from cast iron from the earliest days, and I suspect that almost all the dust in the tunnels is bits of cast iron. Absolutely true. Brake shoes were of cast iron, but they went through a load of experiments through the years. I spent a lot of time in depots in the 1960s (because I could!) and never missed an opportunity to crawl under trains and strike-up friendships with the army of specialists that kept the trains running. That included me looking at brake blocks (anyone who knows me will understand why I had an interest in that particular piece of train equipment ). At that time 1938TS had some really chunky composite blocks. Many of them were a dark-brown, but sometimes I would see light-brown, grey and black versions as LT tried out new materials. A lot of the composite shoes had small particles and sparkly bits in them to varying degrees as different mixes of materials were tried. I distinctly remember asbestos being mentioned as one of the substances that was added to some of the shoes. Stations such as Highgate and Hampstead southbound, which were approached down steep gradients, were always full of dust - it was often like a fog if a couple of the preceding trains had made heavy brake applications. Goodness knows what we were breathing in. I certainly remember the brake shoes giving out a very distinctive smell that I would describe as uncooked smoked bacon, although I doubt if that was the asbestos. Early electric trains also contained a lot of asbestos. Even standard stock had it in places like switch cases and I certainly remember seeing pipes at stations with asbestos fabric wound round them and secured only with wire. I believe that asbestos particles were also used at one time in the material that encased the windings in the motors, although I cannot confirm that. I always understood that the high voltages used in control circuits made arcing inevitable and so asbestos was a material of choice. Asbestos was also quite common at the back of heaters and cookers at stations, and was quite often cracked or broken. Like many things in those days, when it became unfit for purpose or was replaced, it often got thrown behind the sand-bins on platforms in the hope that a p-way crew might pick it up with their rubbish! As a result of all of these examples, I would think that it is quite likely that some found its way into the tunnels. The only question is, what type of asbestos was it?
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Post by District Dave on Feb 21, 2008 11:19:48 GMT
I'm pretty sure that when on early turns I've noted something that looks suspiciously like a tunnel cleaning train wending its way back towards Ruislip.
It certainly seems to have what look like large intakes and storage 'bins' being propelled by battery locos.
Or is it my imagination?.......
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Post by District Dave on Feb 21, 2008 11:23:08 GMT
I can't see air-conditioning working very well on some of the SSLs tunnels... I think you'll find that there will be a programme of regular filter replacement to ensure it functions correctly. Other systems will have coped with dust at these levels in the past and I'm sure it will be within the abilities of the manufacturers.
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Post by angelislington on Feb 21, 2008 20:13:01 GMT
I'm pretty sure that when on early turns I've noted something that looks suspiciously like a tunnel cleaning train wending its way back towards Ruislip. It certainly seems to have what look like large intakes and storage 'bins' being propelled by battery locos. Or is it my imagination?....... Nah, that's Noo-noo, from the Telly Tubbies. Ruislip is where it's filmed. Anyway, wasn't asbestos in sheets used as lining material in some stations?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:23:29 GMT
They removed asbestos from Brixton (2004?) and Victoria recently.
Melamine ceilings were removed from stations after the King's Cross fire and replaced. (Though not at Charing Cross Jubilee)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:28:08 GMT
I'm pretty sure that when on early turns I've noted something that looks suspiciously like a tunnel cleaning train wending its way back towards Ruislip. It certainly seems to have what look like large intakes and storage 'bins' being propelled by battery locos. Or is it my imagination?....... I believe that's the TubeVac, it's a drain cleaner, there is a thread somewhere. I've seen it heading west, normally around Chiswick Park, waiting for current on, when I'm heading east doing nights.
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Post by c5 on Feb 21, 2008 20:30:57 GMT
I'm pretty sure that when on early turns I've noted something that looks suspiciously like a tunnel cleaning train wending its way back towards Ruislip. It certainly seems to have what look like large intakes and storage 'bins' being propelled by battery locos. Or is it my imagination?....... I believe that's the TubeVac, it's a drain cleaner, there is a thread somewhere. I've seen it heading west, normally around Chiswick Park, waiting for current on, when I'm heading east doing nights. Is that the one that cleans/recycles ballast???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:31:17 GMT
Anyway, wasn't asbestos in sheets used as lining material in some stations? Asbestos sheets were lined along tube tunnels on the Central line east of Liverpool Street at carriage floor height as sound baffles, these were removed in the mid 1980s.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:32:47 GMT
I believe that's the TubeVac, it's a drain cleaner, there is a thread somewhere. I've seen it heading west, normally around Chiswick Park, waiting for current on, when I'm heading east doing nights. Is that the one that cleans/recycles ballast??? I think so I asked about it a year or so ago if somebody can find the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:33:32 GMT
Asbestos was also used as a noise baffle experimentally in the tunnels between Hampstead and Golders Green... It was all removed via a costly process, and involved wrong line working, supplemented by additional buses! It's quite possible that small particules of this were dislodged every time a train passed by; and more than likely, some traces of this is still there today, lurking in the nooks and crannies...
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Post by c5 on Feb 21, 2008 20:33:58 GMT
Is that the one that cleans/recycles ballast??? I think so I asked about it a year or so ago if somebody can find the thread. There were some photos but can't remember where I saw them! I'm sure there's a tunnel cleaning train that works somewhere too!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:43:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:49:42 GMT
Thanks Rob, that looks like the train I see, although when I see it the arm is stowed along the roof line.
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Post by angelislington on Feb 21, 2008 22:28:13 GMT
Asbestos was also used as a noise baffle experimentally in the tunnels between Hampstead and Golders Green... It was all removed via a costly process, and involved wrong line working, supplemented by additional buses! Yes - I've just seen that on the Norvern DVD I'm watching right now! I mean, not seen the asbestos, but heard it being described in the narration. I do wonder, though - if it was successful at minimising noise, I wonder why it wasn't replaced with anything else? Having said that, the tunnel's pretty deep at that point (the deepest section on the whole system, IIRC?) so why would sound-proofing be needed anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 23:07:11 GMT
Sound proofing for the occupants within the train. The older stocks were noisier because of single glazing and opening windows. In the 1930s Pick wanted the UndergrounD to be the first railway in the world to have air conditioning installed. Needless to say.....
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Post by stanmorek on Feb 21, 2008 23:11:16 GMT
I'm told that due to their stock histories that the Picc and Central line are the most at risk from asbestos residue from old brake blocks. The District is meant to be the worst of the sub surface lines.
From my recollection, working on resleepering jobs in the Cirlce where gangs were digging out ballast beds like their lives depended on it, the air in the tunnel would be thick with dust. The ballast could have lain there for years and we were doing it without protective face masks! On weekend possessions we'd have food brought down to us at break times where'd there were no means of washing yourself before eating. Crawling around cable pits is probably not advisable either.
It would be fair to say that asbestos is present nearly everywhere on the system as its use was only banned from 2000 onwards. It was extensively used for structural fire protection, cable sheathing, tunnel drainage and tunnel caulking. In stations structural steel beams could be sprayed with asbestos for fire protection, have floor and ceiling tiles, pipe gaskets etc containing asbestos. As mentioned in an earlier post there are different types which are known by their characteristic colours white, brown and blue. Unfortunately it is not always possible to identify these in products as they will be mixed with other materials and can be any colour. Short of taking samples for testing an assessment can be made if the products is identified by a manufacturer's names who has a history of supplying asbestos containing products. LU and the infracos use their Rail Asbestos Control Unit (or RACU) to advise on matters involving asbestos and to keep a register of asbestos containing materials on the system.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2008 13:58:39 GMT
Last week traveling past Ruislip depot on the central there was a nice yellow 3 ? car train outside the sheds with Tunnel Cleaning Train on it. Is that now working only on the central or is it being moved somewhere?
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