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Post by uzairjubilee on Jul 11, 2008 13:52:08 GMT
Hi all, I was reading the future proposals section on the CULG website. In the Victoria Line bit there, it says:''The track arrangement at Brixton is one of the bottlenecks in operating the line'' My question is that how is Brixton a bottleneck when it has a crossover. And also, how come Walthamstow Central has the same layout and is not listed there. Is Walthamstow not a bottleneck?
Also, is says this in the same section: ''and there is a proposal to extend it in a large single-track loop to a new station at Herne Hill.'' Does anyone have anymore information on this?
Thanks Uzair
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2008 13:56:28 GMT
The main difference between Walthamstow Central and Brixton is that almost all trains go through to Brixton, whilst not all trains terminate at Walthamstow Central, many n/b Victoria Line trains tip out at Seven Sisters and run to Northumberland Park depot/ staff platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2008 16:10:05 GMT
As David says the third platform and approach line at Seven Sisters means that trains can be easily reversed at Seven Sisters (or go empty to NP depot) and the number of trains reaching the far north is less than that at Brixton - I think about every third train doesn't go beyond SS, with the NP depot service being about every 20 minutes or so.
In theory the reversing facilities at Victoria offer an opportunity to reduce the number of trains reaching Brixton - but problems with this are that the line south of Victoria is much busier than the line north of Seven Sisters, and that emptying a train at Victoria will very likely cause delay to the following southbound train.
From what I remember the Herne Hill loop idea was raised at around the same time as the Space Train idea - i.e. for implementation at the time of complete upgrading of the line, as you would probably need an extra three or four trains to allow for the loop service.
I believe there were two parts to the logic behind the loop idea. One was that a loop would allow a higher frequency (although take longer) than reversing trains in the dead-end platforms with conflicting crossover that exists at Brixton. The station at Herne Hill station would probably have been a wide island platform (similar in size to Heathrow Central) underneath the British Rail station and this would have allowed a few minutes layover for each train.
I think the other reason was that so many of the passengers at Brixton are actually to/from places further afield and simply using Brixton as an interchange with bus or rail services. Many of Brixton's passengers would be either to/from the Herne Hill area, or could more usefully interchange (especially with National Rail) at Herne Hill, thus spreading the load and reducing passenger numbers at Brixton.
As we know the upgrading is going ahead now, based pretty much on like-for-like renewal without major infrastructure changes. As far as I know the Herne Hill loop has been chucked out of the same window as the Space Train concept - I think because of the costs involved.
(edited for incompetent speeling)
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Post by edwin on Jul 11, 2008 22:27:38 GMT
How much would building a crossover and extending the overrun tunnels south of Brixton cost?
And does anyone know why the terminus(es?) at Brixton and Walthamstow Central were built this way?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2008 23:06:20 GMT
How much would building a crossover and extending the overrun tunnels south of Brixton cost? Lots. And does anyone know why the terminus(es?) at Brixton and Walthamstow Central were built this way? Because stephenk's concept of the flying terminus hadn't been drawn yet?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 11, 2008 23:58:45 GMT
Because stephenk's concept of the flying terminus hadn't been drawn yet? Aha! So it's not just me then? I sort of get the general principles, but when I attempt to sketch it: it becomes all sort of 'Crimson Permanent Assurance Society'. Apologies for the needless and airborne 'Python' reference.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2008 7:28:40 GMT
Termini such as Brixton and Walthamstow Central are the most cost effective terminus to build, which is why they were utilised on the Victoria Line. Brixton handles 28.5tph and Walthamstow 20tph in the peaks. Brixton has a platform re-occupation time of 96secs, which means with average 126sec headways then there is 30secs of operating margin & door closing time. Walthamstow has a platform re-occupation time of 90secs due to a slightly more compact crossover (and possibly different home signal position/approach gradients).
Unfortunately these types of termini become bottlenecks as the tph reaches around 30tph. Building higher capacity underground termini adds a lot for construction costs for only a few extra tph. Reversing beyond platforms helps as at Bank (DLR), but not with LUs tipping out policy. Personally I think a grade-seperated crossover on approach would be a good solution (a modern metro wouldn't build an at grade junction, so why build an at grade terminus approach!). My plans are off-line, I'll try and put them back online in the next few days.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2008 22:14:13 GMT
As promised, here is my idea for a grade seperated terminus approach. i348.photobucket.com/albums/q332/stephenk_2008/GSTo.jpgIt shouldn't cost much more to construct than a terminus with crossover and reversing siding(s) such as Victoria when it was the terminus of the Victoria Line.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2008 12:12:40 GMT
Didn't Elephant and Castle handle 35tph before the Bakerloo was split. I know that this was "pre Moorgate", but the Elephant has two sidings beyond the platforms, so this is a similar situation to Brixton.
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Post by Tom on Jul 21, 2008 19:50:51 GMT
Yes, but Elephant has a crossover south of the station. The overlaps of the fixed red lights at the south end of the station only extend to that crossover, hence trains have to be speed controlled into the platforms.
The NB platform is much more restrictive in this respect, with the timing section set for 10mph compared to 20mph in the SB platform.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 21, 2008 19:53:10 GMT
At a quick glance through the Bakerloo section of the library I can find 21tph scheduled on the '53 Coronation morning; 31tph scheduled in Morning Busy in 1935; 28tph scheduled just after morning busy in 1931 (this is slightly inflated by looking at departing trains that uncoupled - so arrived as one and went as two 3-cars). The theoretical minima between trains as per WTT is 1½ minutes between trains departing making a possible (and slightly interesting if it was ever scheduled) 40tph! If time permits I'll have a look at how the schedules changed after the 1941 resignalling of Elephant. However, we've drifted somewhat off the Victoria Line.
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 21, 2008 20:40:24 GMT
The train entry speeds at Elephant are much lower than at Brixton. The crossover is smaller so the overlaps and clearance times are shorter. Lower speeds allow more trains to run but only down to about 25mph. If you do the maths, you get a nice curve which shows that the optimum speed is between 25 and 29 mph.
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 21, 2008 20:46:43 GMT
As for the Brixton loop. We looked at this. Three drawbacks £100million cost; slow movement of trains round the loop unless you make it bigger and more expensive; two more trains required for service. There was the possibility of a station at Herne Hill but more cost and more passengers on a line already overcrowded made it a non-starter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 23:33:12 GMT
At a quick glance through the Bakerloo section of the library I can find 21tph scheduled on the '53 Coronation morning; 31tph scheduled in Morning Busy in 1935; 28tph scheduled just after morning busy in 1931 (this is slightly inflated by looking at departing trains that uncoupled - so arrived as one and went as two 3-cars). The theoretical minima between trains as per WTT is 1½ minutes between trains departing making a possible (and slightly interesting if it was ever scheduled) 40tph! The Bakerloo apparently once ran 34tph. This would be a train every 1min45secs. Due to LU's rather backward method of timetabling to 30min accuracy, I would assume that this would have been timetabled to alternate 1min30sec/2min intervals. Most metros that now run more than 30tph, timetable to 5 sec accuracy. I have read that the Bakerloo once tested 40tph SB through Baker Street. I doubt that 40tph could be reversed reliably at Elephant, as there would be only around 5secs of door closing time and operating margin for NB moves from the SB platform - unless of course the doors were in the process of being closed before the green signal, which I have observed being done on Hong Kong's MTR. The train entry speeds at Elephant are much lower than at Brixton. The crossover is smaller so the overlaps and clearance times are shorter. Lower speeds allow more trains to run but only down to about 25mph. If you do the maths, you get a nice curve which shows that the optimum speed is between 25 and 29 mph. The platform re-occupation time at Elephant (SB platform) is approx 85secs. This is about 10 secs better than Brixton due to Elephant's more compact crossover. Elephant's NB platform starter can clear after approx 70secs from the last NB departure which also helps capacity. I don't think Brixton's NB platform starter can clear for approx 90secs after the preceding SB platform departure. . As Brixton's crossover was designed for maximum speed running, then it's crossover does not offer the optimum capacity. However, the post-Kings X fire guidelines requiring more spacious stations and fire exits mean that a design such as Elephant with a compact crossover and platforms virtually next to each other could not be built anyway. I wonder what the design platform re-occupation times (RORIT, RORI, dynamic headway, or whatever else it's called this week) were for Charing X (Jubilee) and Heathrow (T123) when they were termini?
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 22, 2008 0:45:14 GMT
With regard to Brixton, platform 1 starter (VE2) will clear to white when AH, AK, BG, AL, AS, AU clear (2910'); clear to green with 373 A - E tracks additionally clear (4500'). Platform 2 starter (VE4) will clear to white with the crossover and flank tracks clear (BE, BC, BB, 394 C, BG) and then as VE2 (2914'); green as for the white, plus 373 A - E again (4504'). VE12 (Brixton 'Home') is 807' from VE4, 803' from VE2. Edit: I'm a foot out on my maths - and I've just put the yellow peril away; tut, tut.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 22, 2008 0:56:26 GMT
Walthamstow Home is about 75' nearer the opposing starter than Brixtons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 6:27:39 GMT
With regard to Brixton, platform 1 starter (VE2) will clear to white when AH, AK, BG, AL, AS, AU clear (2910'); clear to green with 373 A - E tracks additionally clear (4500'). Platform 2 starter (VE4) will clear to white with the crossover and flank tracks clear (BE, BC, BB, 394 C, BG) and then as VE2 (2914'); green as for the white, plus 373 A - E again (4504'). VE12 (Brixton 'Home') is 807' from VE4, 803' from VE2. ) Thanks for those figures. Very interesting. Are you able to find out the distance from VE1 and VE2 that a departing train has to clear before VE12 can clear to green for an arriving train (i.e the length of the crossover)? I would also guess that the new signalling with a 20kph speed code will allow the home signal to be closer to the crossover? Walthamstow Home is about 75' nearer the opposing starter than Brixtons. This may partially explain why the platform re-occupation time is 6secs less at Walthamstow than at Brixton.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 22, 2008 7:37:55 GMT
Brixton crossover is 376' long (based on the TC dimensions).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 9:50:49 GMT
Brixton crossover is 376' long (based on the TC dimensions). Thanks! Stupid question, but what does TC mean?
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Post by Tom on Jul 22, 2008 17:36:32 GMT
Traffic Circular.
I've incidentally heard today a reason why the Walthamstow home is that much nearer - and it may cause a few problems!
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 22, 2008 18:20:09 GMT
Ye-es. I was actually thinking of Track Circuits though. In this circumstance the terms are interchangeable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 8:49:35 GMT
Traffic Circular. I've incidentally heard today a reason why the Walthamstow home is that much nearer - and it may cause a few problems! Such as?
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Post by Tom on Jul 23, 2008 19:02:40 GMT
A slight design fault which has gone unnoticed for the last 40 years - I'd probably best not say any more at this stage.
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