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Post by jamesb on Jul 3, 2008 10:40:49 GMT
I thought the District Line had the new Connect system? Right now, the entire District, Circle H&C and part of the Bakerloo lines are suspended.
Is this the first time the Connect system has gone so wrong? Or is it nothing to do with Connect?
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Post by c5 on Jul 3, 2008 10:46:00 GMT
It has got the Connect radio.
Yes the radios have broken, it sounds like there has been a problem at Baker Street.
There have been numerous Connect radio failures before.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 3, 2008 10:53:54 GMT
does the Met not use connect then? Nothing was being mentioned anywhere about it being suspended.
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Post by Alight on Jul 3, 2008 11:02:25 GMT
Yep - affecting all subsurface lines as well as the Bakerloo Line, today.
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Post by c5 on Jul 3, 2008 11:11:06 GMT
does the Met not use connect then? Nothing was being mentioned anywhere about it being suspended. It does use Connect and comes under the C&H Service Control for the whole line (though the talkgroups between Baker St and Aldgate are Met line ones, there is another talk group for Baker Street to Hammersmith/Notting Hill Gate). You are right in saying that it was not suspended earlier, though delays now being advised. I don't know what the exact fault was,so can't elaborate further, except to say that Connect works in mysterious ways! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 3, 2008 14:13:53 GMT
I'm soo glad I'm rest day today  ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by jamesb on Jul 3, 2008 16:38:12 GMT
When you think of the distance from one end of the District Line to the other (and the Circle/H&C), it's a huge weakness that the whole thing can be closed in an all-or-nothing fashion by a failure of the communications equipment.
Is there not a backup in place whereby the communications for the line can be split into smaller chunks, which could be used in a situation of desperation, to keep part of the service running?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 18:00:34 GMT
Not being a Connect expert, that is my understanding of how the Connect system works. There are base stations located at stations and at selected areas and these work independently of each other. These base stations have their own unique power back up supply and back up transmitters.
Obviously a failure higher up the system would have a greater affect - like todays.
AFAIK the radio failure wasn't a total failure but bought the integrity of the radio system into doubt. Current LU rules state that passenger services must be suspended during a radio failure.
Oh and for the record, the Met was suspended originally Aldgate - Liverpool Street, then was suspended Baker Street - Aldgate.
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Post by scorpio on Jul 3, 2008 20:31:27 GMT
I might be missing the point and If I am, I apologise.
How comes during World War Two the trains continued to run the day after a bombing raid had made a little bit of a mess but a radio failure can bring the system to a stop.
It's the same with escalator's, everywhere I seem to go they are either being repaired, refurbished or out of action for some other reason. We can send Man into space but when it comes to escalator's working we just can't seem to do it.
Rant over, I will go and hide behind the sofa. ;D
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Post by c5 on Jul 3, 2008 22:01:33 GMT
Well radios only came in in the 1980's. But back then every train had a guard on who could get assistance.
There is also a greater emphasis on real time information and there is a general feeling that passengers are more panicky when a train stops between stations.
And as to escalators, well they have to be fixed and upgraded at some times, maybe we should only open for 5 hours on a Sunday ;-)
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 3, 2008 22:06:47 GMT
And as to escalators, well they have to be fixed and upgraded at some times, maybe we should only open for 5 hours on a Sunday ;-) Too generous - run the Christmas Day services of yore on a Sunday for a few months - the extra engineering hours will help everyone in the long run.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 0:15:46 GMT
I might be missing the point and If I am, I apologise. How comes during World War Two the trains continued to run the day after a bombing raid had made a little bit of a mess but a radio failure can bring the system to a stop. Health and Safety legislation, blame culture, lawyers, the removal of guards, privatisation possibly, etc, etc, etc. In the past the driver's rule - the authority granted by the rulebook to pass an automatic signal at danger in certain circumstances - required a driver to wait only one minute before applying it, now it requires two. In the past, passing an auto at danger even without authority - ie, having a SPAD - was not generally as big a problem as it is now, because it was accepted that the system of trainstops and such were sufficient to prevent these developing into a major accident. One SPAD handled incorrectly by a driver now could cause them to lose their job, and every single SPAD that is caused by driver error requires corrective training and has to be reported, mainly due to the high-profile crashes caused by SPAD's on national rail - despite the fact that LU and the national rail network have very different signalling systems. Things change, and we could probably argue all day over which way is 'best', old or new. I prefer to look on the bright side of that question: it *was* only a radio failure, not a bombing. Depending on the nature of the fault, it may also have been that OPO alarms - on the Bakerloo, at least, I'm not sure if they have them on subsurface? - were affected. That means that service control would have no way of knowing whether there was still someone alive and conscious at the handle of a train that had stopped. This is related to the lack of guards; in the past, the guard would be on the spot to handle the situation. Tube lines may not run without an OPO alarm functioning, IIRC. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 4, 2008 1:28:37 GMT
I might be missing the point and If I am, I apologise. How comes during World War Two the trains continued to run the day after a bombing raid had made a little bit of a mess but a radio failure can bring the system to a stop. The 7th July 2005 is the point. It was after the events of that day that it was decided radio communications are crucial to the public's safety - so if there's any sort of failure of the radio system, we now suspend the service (at least as far as the public is concerned) Trains will usually continue to run (out of service of course) with station staff manning the platforms (near a telephone)......should there then be a need, station staff can 'flag the train down'. Before anyone asks the obvious, the reason we don't run a service even with the platforms staffed is that drivers need to clearly see the said staff - not easy on a busy platform full of customers - and we now have to able to evacuate the network very quickly if an emergency situation arises......not easy to do if the driver is totally oblivious, sat between two stations and with no radio. Depending on the nature of the fault, it may also have been that OPO alarms - on the Bakerloo, at least, I'm not sure if they have them on subsurface? Sub-surface lines don't have OPO alarms - that's a deep tube only feature **OPO alarms, for those that don't know, are related to the deadman on the combined traction brake controller (drivers handle) - if it isn't depressed after a set time, an alrm is sent to the line controller indicating that the driver may have collapsed or such like. The line Controller will then arrange for assistance to be provided to the driver** |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 7:52:56 GMT
Sub-surface lines don't have OPO alarms - that's a deep tube only feature ;) That's what I suspected, but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying. ;) |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 4, 2008 17:49:30 GMT
And as to escalators, well they have to be fixed and upgraded at some times, maybe we should only open for 5 hours on a Sunday ;-) No, they should only be worked on when they break down, and work should be done as quick and as easy as possible, even if it looks messy - the Central line's way of doing things! Also, there should be no closures on Sundays, and the Circle should run through the night, at least in one direction. |
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;D ;D ;D
