Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 7, 2005 18:18:47 GMT
Dave's main site has some brilliant reminiscences from staff members but very little (none?) from the "other side". This is an event that sticks in my mind even ten years on.
I had visited my father who was seriously ill at home (Oakwood, Picc), and got to the station at 1800 to catch the 1915 Paddington-Cheltenham. Done it many times before: upto 10 mins wait for Picc, 23mins to KX, change to Met line, wait, Circle or H&D to Paddington, arrive Padd between 1855 and 1905.
I sort of felt there could be a problem when the supposed 1808 arrived at Oakwood with the driver slumped over the controls at 1823. Nothing wrong with the train (a guess) because when it went it went VERY fast including over the junctions. However we dashed then dawdled,sped up and almost stopped etc. Stations were another thing: sometimes we stopped in the right place, sometimes not. Sometimes we would wait up to 30 secs for doors to be opened, other times for 30 secs after they closed. We took 48mins to reach KX! I know there was nothing in front because the platform was so full we could hardly get off. Needless to say we missed the 1915 (annoyingly by only 3 mins).
That is not the point of the story though. As a WSR DMU driver I wrote to the traincrew manager expressing my concerns about the driving, giving date time and train reporting number.
The reply I got was amazing: totally patronising on the grounds of "what do you know?" and "all our drivers are top blokes"etc., not even saying anything about the incident being investigated. I was also reprimanded for not reporting it at KX if I was concerned.. WHO TO at 1900 on a Saturday when the platform was so full you could not see where the staff (if any) were, and I was still hopng to get to Padd just in time. WHat would the stationman have done if I HAD told him?
I understand railways and am pretty sure the operator was over the limit but nothing was done....how would that have looked if I had been an ordinary member of the public and got the same response?
A thought to all you operators- how far does YOur traincrew manager (or whatever they are called now) go to protect the one or two black sheep? In a different situation this bloke could have KILLED someone due to poor reflexes in a one under situation?
All ten years ago now but I still enjoy the occasional LU journey when back in the smoke (unlike when I commuted regularly!)
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Post by Admin Team on May 7, 2005 18:48:05 GMT
Many thanks for that rather salutory tale, and, by the sound of it, your diagnosis could well be what was behind the incident.
I wonder if any of our other readers may have any knowledge of the incident.
Responses like the one you received do nothing to either respond to the legitimate concerns that you'd raised or to reassure that it was a 'one off'.
As I'm sure you know, LU has a rigorous Drugs and Alcohol policy and it is the DMT's responsibility to assess the drivers fitness for work before booking him on. Incidentally, this policy extends to all grades in LU.
I'd very much hope that the response you'd receive to such an event these days would be much more better conceived, and I'm sure that the event was taken seriously. Probably the point the writer was really making was that it's nigh on impossible to investigate such an incident after the event. Possibly what he was meaning by the reporting of it to the time was that the station staff could have notified the Controller/Local Manager etc. and the driver could have been assessed on the spot.
Of course, it could have been that the driver was ill and was struggling to keep going at all, though if this was the case I'd have expected him to have reported the matter and, if necessary, for the train to have been taken out of service if no 'spare' could be got to him.
As for the question of the protection of the 'black sheep', I think it's fair to say that whilst some of the more 'recalcitrant' seem to get away with too much, they'd not be covered up in a situation such as this - it'd be more than the DMT's job would be worth if it came out that he'd booked the driver on whilst suspecting he was unfit to work.
Glad you still enjoy your trips around the system, and I hope you contribute more here too - it's always good to 'see' new faces.
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 7, 2005 20:27:05 GMT
Just the answer I'd hoped for- I've been D&A'd for an incident that was none of my making (clear of course) and hope LU is just as vigilant these days.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on May 8, 2005 2:12:04 GMT
LUL is very serious these days with regard to drugs and alcohol. As I am sure you are aware, we are legislated by the Transport and Works Act 1997. This basically means zero drugs and an extremely low alcohol level (much, much lower than a car driver - preferably zero) in your system while on duty. Every member of station and trains operational staff can be subject to a random test at any time while on duty. Also train operator's are tested straight after certain incident's - a one under being the most common one.
Although I have only worked for LUL for 4 years now, from what I know of the old days, you are in safer, more proffesional hands now that at any time in the past. Years ago, a lot things may have been quietly dealt with, but not in today's workplace.
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Post by trainopd78 on May 8, 2005 8:19:47 GMT
ANY customer compliant is dealt with, with the upmost uregency now days. The situation is now completely reverse from your bad experience 10 years ago. The company now seem to haul a member of staff over the coals for a customer complaint and it's now up to the member of staff to prove their innocence (bad experience on the stations). We probably have the best customer service of any (non preserved) railway in the UK now.
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 8, 2005 9:38:42 GMT
yes, including random D&A tests as well. Yet having worked in public transport (although on the roads!!!) for a while some time ago , even then a complaint such as this would have been followed up by tracking the "offender" for several weeks to see if they were a regular offender or if this was a one-off. I would have been much more reassured if something to this effect had been put in the response to me rather than leave me with the impression that nothing was going to be done.
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Post by piccadillypilot on May 8, 2005 11:30:00 GMT
you are in safer, more proffesional hands now that at any time in the past. Years ago, a lot things may have been quietly dealt with, but not in today's workplace. There are many who would take umbrage to such a suggestion. The people doing the job have not changed in their attitude to doing the job. What has changed is the increased bureaucracy and petty rules that mean that problems take longer to sort out. Something that has changed for the better is the attitude to dealing with train defects with safety implications. People have been reduced in grade and sacked because items of train equipment weren't working and they withdrew the train from service. |
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SE13
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Glorious Gooner
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Post by SE13 on May 10, 2005 13:58:20 GMT
Random D&A tests should be spread further than just The London Underground too!!!
In my opinion, though, with the amount of people potentially in transit on the cars, a total zero policy of both needs to be adopted, not a "lower than road driving" level....
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on May 10, 2005 18:39:40 GMT
What you have to bear in mind is that you can't tell people what to do in their own time. The reason drugs are not tollerated at all is that they are illegal - so easier to enforce. With alcohol, the idea is you can go out on a Friday night and get sloshed, but when you come to work saturday, you must be able to do your job 100% alert. Therefore it can still be present, but it should not impair your abillity to work. There are guidelines on how to make sure employees stick within the limits - which every member of operational staff should be aware of.
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Post by igelkotten on May 10, 2005 19:14:01 GMT
What are the alchohol limits for LU staff anyway?
Here in Sweden, we have a zero rule on everything that has steel wheels -no alchohol whatsoever in the bloodstream while on duty.
We also have a ruling from the Swedish Railway Inspectorate that says that the operating company must subject a certain amount of it's safety-critical staff to random drug & alchohol testing each year.
Likewise, we are subject to D&A tests after all serious incidents, such as a derailment, passing a signal at danger without permission and so on.
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solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
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Post by solidbond on May 10, 2005 19:24:01 GMT
That sounds as if it is exactly the same as the LU alcohol limits, and the D&A procedure seems to be the same as well!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on May 11, 2005 0:31:28 GMT
What are the alchohol limits for LU staff anyway? The guidelines are: Not more than 7 units in the 24 hours before booking on, and, none at all in the 8 hours before booking on. This should leave 99.9% of people in a fit state to carry out their duties!! |
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Post by igelkotten on May 11, 2005 2:27:52 GMT
The guidelines are: Not more than 7 units in the 24 hours before booking on, and, none at all in the 8 hours before booking on. This should leave 99.9% of people in a fit state to carry out their duties!! So what is a "unit of alchohol", then? I suppose it is some equivalent of "one beer or a small whisky" or something on those lines, but a more exact definition would be good. |
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Post by trainopd78 on May 11, 2005 9:00:51 GMT
So what is a "unit of alchohol", then? I suppose it is some equivalent of "one beer or a small whisky" or something on those lines, but a more exact definition would be good. A pint of fosters is 2.34 units. A tot of whisky old std measure is 1 unit approx. What you have to bear in mind is that you can't tell people what to do in their own time. The reason drugs are not tollerated at all is that they are illegal - so easier to enforce I agree with the D & A policy that safety critical staff have to adhere to but has its drawbacks: We also cannot take a lot of over the counter or prescription drugs either. It can be a right pain in the bum if we fall ill or get an ache etc. We cannot take anything codeine based so thats most decent painkillers off limits. If we visit the dentist we cant have certain anaesthetics. The whole D & A policy is incredibly restrictive and is sometimes at odds with getting a speedy recovery so that we are in a fit state for returning to work. We get slated by the press etc for our salary, leave etc, but it needs to be beared in mind, that our job isn't just a job, it rules your life as you are restricted in what you can do and when in many scenario's and you cant just go out for a drink. You often need to swap rest days which could take weeks in advance to plan. Our sickness levels also gets slated, but many illnesess need drugs that would make us illegal to work, so we get no choice but to take time off. Damned if we do, damned if we dont. |
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 11, 2005 13:52:12 GMT
So what is a "unit of alchohol", then? I suppose it is some equivalent of "one beer or a small whisky" or something on those lines, but a more exact definition would be good. The exact answer is 10ml (10cc) of neat alcohol! some examples of how it works: 1 litre (1000ml) beer @ 3% gives 30 ml alcohol so 3 units 25 ml scotch @40% (a single) gives 10ml alc so 1 unit 1 pint beer(568ml) @4.5% gives 25.5ml alc so 2.5 units 1 glass (125ml) wine @ 15% gives 18.75ml so 1.9 units Hope you can follow it- if not you can post the details of your favorite tipple and I'll calculate the units for you- all I need is the % (ABV) and the amount you want to consume !!! |
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 11, 2005 16:29:26 GMT
Oh, and the body gets rid of about 1 unit of alcohol per hour REGARDLESS of what else you do, eat, drink water, black coffee, exercise etc.
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Post by q8 on May 11, 2005 18:34:00 GMT
The exact answer is 10ml (10cc) of neat alcohol!
some examples of how it works:
1 litre (1000ml) beer @ 3% gives 30 ml alcohol so 3 units
25 ml scotch @40% (a single) gives 10ml alc so 1 unit
1 pint beer(568ml) @4.5% gives 25.5ml alc so 2.5 units
1 glass (125ml) wine @ 15% gives 18.75ml so 1.9 units
Hope you can follow it- if not you can post the details of your favorite tipple and I'll calculate the units for you- all I need is the % (ABV) and the amount you want to consume !!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
How much would a glass of strong cider be then? Also some medicines contain alcohol and some herbal cures do too. What's the position then?
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 11, 2005 21:16:19 GMT
----------------------------------------------------------- How much would a glass of strong cider be then? Also some medicines contain alcohol and some herbal cures do too. What's the position then? the strongest cider is about 7% so 1 pint is a massive 4 units. Even if your medicine is neat alcohol (it is never more than 10%) two teaspoonsful would not be more than 1/5 unit. Typical medicine- about 1/50 unit (Benylin etc). Codeine etc is going to be far more of a problem. |
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Post by boxboy on May 11, 2005 21:20:25 GMT
The formula to work it out is:
Volume (ml) x %alcohol (abv)
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1000
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on May 12, 2005 11:11:57 GMT
Yup- that's it although unless you have a calculator handy things can get tricky!
Without a calculator, if you take a pint as 600ml and a half as 300 you will be about right, but on the fail-safe side.
Glasses of wine are always the problem, especially in restaurants where sizes vary widely
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on May 13, 2005 18:14:52 GMT
If the guidelines are followed, then no-one would be "over the limit" at any time.
I drive for a living, and our company ruling is no alcohol in the 12 hours preceeding a shift, but as I work 6-6 that would be rather tough, so I break the rules anyway, but I do know the 1 unit = 1 hour rule, and adhere to that strictly, always ensuring there is NO alcohol in my system at all when clocking on.... It still allows a generous 6 cans of Fosters of an evening
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Colin
Advisor
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Post by Colin on Jun 6, 2005 1:15:01 GMT
Regarding alcohol, i've finally found a definitive answer:
The legal limit on UK roads is 80mg. The legal limit on railways in the UK is 29mg.
I got this information from the 'RAIL' magazine.
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on Jun 6, 2005 13:20:01 GMT
The legal limit on railways in the UK is 29mg. As anyone with a PTS knows...... |
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