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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 10:35:18 GMT
Unfortunately what we've now got is an economic situation where the government won't be able to raise the cash to say for it. This morning the government has all but nationalised RBS, taking a 60% stake.
Imagine you live in a rural area, you're a travelling salesman, and need your car for work. It's getting old and unreliable and won't pass the MOT test so you need a new one.
You're then made redundant, can't afford a new car, can't go looking for work. That's the sort of situation facing Crossrail financing - it's needed, but can't get the money.
The Dagenham Dock DLR extension also seems to be for the chop, and that would cost peanuts compared to Crossrail. All we can hope for it that someone else comes up with the money, but it's looking grim now.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 13, 2008 11:14:18 GMT
So, once again, a decade of under investment and no future vision? PRJB, how much do we reeeeeally need the S stock?  XD |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 11:42:13 GMT
Back on topic again, just thinking about the 'first new station on an existing line for 70 years' claimed by the press office. What about Canada Water?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 11:44:28 GMT
So, once again, a decade of under investment and no future vision? PRJB, how much do we reeeeeally need the S stock? XD Without Crossrail it's even more necessary - chuck out your C stock today |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 13, 2008 12:23:19 GMT
Can we include stations on completely different locations such as Hillingdon? Hounslow West?
What about Pimlico, opening 'more than a year' after the Vic extension itself? Or are these stretching points?
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Post by Tubeboy on Oct 13, 2008 13:48:47 GMT
Isnt Hillingdon more a re-siting though?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 13, 2008 14:12:55 GMT
Isnt Hillingdon more a re-siting though? Yes. Was there a point when neither the old or the new station was open? CULG just notes that the station moved on the 6th of December 1992. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 14:23:59 GMT
With Hillingdon they first of all extended both platforms to the west. The old entrance was still in use, and they fenced off the east end of each platform from the track so it acted as a walkway to the west end of the original platform that was still in use along with the new extension. Some time (I think at least a year) later the new entrance opened, and that allowed the old entrance and east end of platforms to be demolished.
I don't remember the station or line being closed for any significant length of time beyond a weekend or early evening closure. I can't be absolutely sure on that point though.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 13, 2008 14:59:54 GMT
I would agree with Canada Water (ELL), how about Tower Hill (1967)?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 13, 2008 15:03:15 GMT
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Post by astock5000 on Oct 13, 2008 15:24:47 GMT
So, once again, a decade of under investment and no future vision? PRJB, how much do we reeeeeally need the S stock? XD We need it, but do we need all 191 trains? 58 less, and all 7 car trains would do... (The C stock needs replacing, and you might as well have a standard fleet for the Circle, District and H&C).  |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 13, 2008 15:47:45 GMT
Is Tower Hill a resiting or not? I prefer to argue that it was a new station on a different site but sharing the same name a la Osterley. Though in that case there was a substantial shifting of course!
As to H/W, because I am biased I shall accept a resiting though it was in effect a new station on a different line (a substantial diversion) retaining the old ticket hall.
I would still put forward Pimlico as it always felt at the time that it was 'added' and certainly did open after the rest of the extension.
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Post by cetacean on Oct 13, 2008 17:34:02 GMT
Back on topic again, just thinking about the 'first new station on an existing line for 70 years' claimed by the press office. What about Canada Water? The original quote is " the first new station on an existing and unextended Tube line for over 70 years", which seems to be an attempt to word it to exclude Canada Water. So what was the last new tube station that wasn't built in connection with a line extension? I'd exclude stations that opened slightly later than the line they're on (Pimlico) or direct replacements for other stations (Hillingdon). |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 13, 2008 20:42:28 GMT
Forgive me for reading into it what isn't there (that's being a former lawyer) but they say 'Tube' and not 'tube', possibly because Wood Lane is a Tube not a tube station?
However as they say, great minds think alike! They talk about 'over 70 years' and my mind has been racing trying to come up with suggestions as to which station they might have in mind on the tube. On the Picc, I am plumping for 25th March 1934, with Osterley.
On the Central, perhaps Roding Valley: 3rd February 1936 (discounting Holborn 25th September 1933 as it was an existing station). Or can we include White City on 23rd November 1947? It replaced Wood Lane, so does it count?
On the Northern, if we discount Mill Hill East as on an extension, could Highgate Low Level qualify (opened 10th January 1941) as the extension to East Finchley had started on 3rd July 1939?
On the SSLs: as regards the District I can suggest apart from Osterley, Elm Park on 13th May 1935; Aldgate East was a 'relocation' of course (31st October 1938). As to the Met., apart from Canada Water (by then on the ELL), can Kings Cross St Pancras being shifted 440 yards and opening on 14th March 1941 count or is it as I suggest a relocation or an additon to an existing station?
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 13, 2008 20:54:59 GMT
The publicity department isn't doing a good job of back-checking; in the following publications:
District and Piccadilly WTT 91 17/10/67
Supplement to Traffic Circular 4/67
Supplement to Traffic Circular 45/67
All references are to Tower Hill New Station.
The first one has a handwritten note inside and a TC reference; the second publication is the opening of the first stage on Sunday 5/2/67, the third is the commissioning notice for the introduction of reversing facilities from Sunday 10th December '67.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 13, 2008 21:16:00 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 13, 2008 21:22:30 GMT
The photograph of the poster HERE is most interesting as I've got all the WTTs of the era covering the changes in the service patterns. I'm fairly sure I could lay my hands on the signalling alteration notices too for improving the headways either side of the new station at Tower Hill. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 13, 2008 21:59:13 GMT
Back on topic again, just thinking about the 'first new station on an existing line for 70 years' claimed by the press office. What about Canada Water? The original quote is " the first new station on an existing and unextended Tube line for over 70 years", which seems to be an attempt to word it to exclude Canada Water. So what was the last new tube station that wasn't built in connection with a line extension? I'd exclude stations that opened slightly later than the line they're on (Pimlico) or direct replacements for other stations (Hillingdon). I'd definiately dispute their claim, but I wouldn't be too sure on the alternatives offered either. Wasn't the East London Line shut before Canada Water opened? Or was it merely a late opener after the rest of the line? Pimlico would be my natural choice, but was on the Brixton extension scheme design (and at least one drawing still makes reference to various items specially positioned for the interim stage when Pimlico was yet to open). Tower Hill I'd suggest is a resiting, despite the references to new. Perhaps they have a point after all? |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 13, 2008 22:58:17 GMT
Re Canada Water, the East London Line reopened on the 25th of March 1998. Canada Water station opened to East London Line passengers 17 months later on the 19th of August 1999.
Also as the ELL was neither constructed nor extended during it's closure, I'd say that Canada Water is definitely a new station on an existing line.
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Post by ruislip on Oct 13, 2008 23:24:24 GMT
Is that the only example of a roundel that contains the line name above where it says UndergrounD or London Transport? |
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Post by cetacean on Oct 13, 2008 23:35:23 GMT
Canada Water was fundamentally built as part of the JLE, so even if it violates the wording of their claim, I don't think it fits the spirit. Wood Lane is a clear cut example of a standalone station that's opened in the middle of an existing, established London Underground line, without anything else closing. When was the last comparable opening?
Osterley is a relocation. Elm Park (et al) opened in connection with the four tracking of Barking-Upminster, which counts as an extension in my book. Pimlico was just a late-running part of the Victoria Line scheme. Tower Hill and KXSP are clearly relocations, and White City probably also is. Roding Valley was brand new, but the line wasn't part of LUL until 12 years later.
Are they really no non-dubious candidates?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 14, 2008 0:22:03 GMT
Trawling through the dates sections on CULG gives -
Hillingdon in December 1923 was 18 years after Uxbridge, so definitely fits the bill.
Queensbury opened two years and a week after the other stations on the Stanmore extension in 1932 - but was this like Pimlico?
West Finchley opened in March 1933, but LU service didn't start until 1940.
If you want to include all TfL railways then obviously the previous such opening was Langdon Park last December.
Personally I think the most likely candidate is Queensbury, as they could claim over 80 years (nearly 85) for Hillingdon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 6:23:21 GMT
Back on topic, not exactly Piccadilly Circus is it? There were more enthusiasts than bona fide passengers when I passed through - and more platform staff than punters too! Fancy spending all that money on a brand new station and then skimping on the OPO equipment. Both platforms staffed during traffic hours - meaning the staff they planned to lose by not having a booking office are required in surplus to man the platforms. I bet the powers that be are furious!
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 14, 2008 6:59:37 GMT
Being biased :-[I believe that Osterley was a completely new station, on a different road, area, etc. As to White City, I suggest that the same applies, only more so in view of its layout and location. However, Canada Water surely fits the bill  This has been an interesting exercise! |
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Post by 21146 on Oct 14, 2008 17:18:58 GMT
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Post by abe on Oct 15, 2008 6:47:16 GMT
I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that Northwood Hills (1933) was the 'last' station opened on an existing line. Of course, the Met doesn't count (in my book) as a Tube line, but that doesn't seem to matter any more.
Queensbury didn't count, because it was opened shortly after the Stanmore extension, and so was seen as a late-opening station.
However, I agree with previous posts that this whole area is fraught with ambiguity!
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Post by 21146 on Oct 15, 2008 18:45:49 GMT
I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that Northwood Hills (1933) was the 'last' station opened on an existing line. Of course, the Met doesn't count (in my book) as a Tube line, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. Queensbury didn't count, because it was opened shortly after the Stanmore extension, and so was seen as a late-opening station. However, I agree with previous posts that this whole area is fraught with ambiguity! Elm Park was added by the LMS in 1935 www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2496913467/sizes/l/ |
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Post by cetacean on Oct 15, 2008 18:50:43 GMT
But the tracks it serves were only added in 1932. Anyone know if it was a delayed part of the original scheme, or a separate project?
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Post by 21146 on Oct 15, 2008 20:03:46 GMT
But the tracks it serves were only added in 1932. Anyone know if it was a delayed part of the original scheme, or a separate project? It was added to serve the Elm Park Estate private housing development. The street level building, with its curved ends and original elements of neon lighting, is clearly different in design from the others between Upney and Upminster. www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2496902013/sizes/l/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2008 1:23:46 GMT
Back on topic, not exactly Piccadilly Circus is it? There were more enthusiasts than bona fide passengers when I passed through - and more platform staff than punters too! Fancy spending all that money on a brand new station and then skimping on the OPO equipment. Both platforms staffed during traffic hours - meaning the staff they planned to lose by not having a booking office are required in surplus to man the platforms. I bet the powers that be are furious! Wouldn't most new openings of any kind overstaff initially? If there are enough people around teething problems are easier to solve and everyone gets a period of time where they can train and learn the station under less pressure. |
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XD
