|
|
Post by stew001 on Jun 11, 2008 17:48:46 GMT
Hi everyone, I have sent a petition to 10 Downing Street for the giverment to re-extend the Central line from Epping to Ongar via North Weald. Please sign the petition at:petitions.pm.gov.uk/ongar-tube-back/Thank you very much for your signature and hopefully we can bring Ongar and North Weald. I hope to get in touch with Epping Forest Council to support the petition. This is what the petition says: People who live in areas such as Epping, North Weald, Ongar and other towns nearby such as Harlow and Bishop's Stortford are annoyed about the current lack of transport in the Ongar Area. Due to Ongar and North Weald tube stations closing in 1994. Epping tube station has become too busy for it handle the growth. Ongar and North Weald are growing tows and need a train station of some form. Therefore I believe that the government should fund London Underground to re-extend the Central line to Ongar. Growth of Ongar especialy means that the branch would no-longer unprofitable. Other ideas such as having the stations un-manned would mean the stations would bring more revenue. THANK YOU  |
|
|
|
Post by londonstuff on Jun 11, 2008 19:06:41 GMT
I think, before sending something to Downing Street, you should check the grammar and get rid of the typos first - it'll make more people want to sign it...  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 19:14:34 GMT
having the stations un-manned would mean the stations would bring more revenue. I think unmanned stations would mean LESS revenue since some potential passengers would be deterred by the safety implications of the lack of staff. Also, fare evasion would be higher. Of course, I am in favour of the basic idea of restoring the service - but I think the economics are very much against it, unfortunately. PS: Welcome to the forum! |
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Jun 11, 2008 19:25:31 GMT
If you have enough cameras, and ticket barriers, that shouldn't be a problem. However, I would not extend the Central until the 1992TS is replaced, because it is unreliable so you need as many spares as possible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 19:52:23 GMT
If you have enough cameras, and ticket barriers, that shouldn't be a problem. However, I would not extend the Central until the 1992TS is replaced, because it is unreliable so you need as many spares as possible. How can you have ticket barriers without staff? |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
|
Post by Ben on Jun 11, 2008 20:22:12 GMT
Well, TfL keep having rounds of ticet office clousures, and some of the eastern stations on the central are unmaned atm; whereas when Blake Hall closed it still had allocated staff.
Its a good idea in principal, it could be run as a community railway. But the lack of stock is a problem; the short platforms are too, lack of conductor rails, the single track passing under the M11.
If the war hadn't occured Ongar would probably have had a full double track railway built, no changing at Epping and such. If that were the case it would probably still be open today.
Maybe an Halt at Coopersale could be built if the line is reopened? And what about Blake Hall? In for a penny in for a pound.
|
|
|
|
Post by stew001 on Jun 11, 2008 21:23:24 GMT
I know about the typos i was stupis not to check them  as i type so fast my spelling is never right  About the stations being un-manned would save alot of money, places such as Ongar and North Weald do nopt have any crime therefore people there are really not into jumping ticket barriers and not paying. The idea could be tested. I would like to write up a proposal and send it out to Downing Street, Epping Forest District Council and TfL. I KNOW FOR A FACT TfL will not be in favor at first but time have changed since the early 90's. The branch could be extremely profitable. Another main problem is rolling stock availability. However i have a good friend who works down at TfL and he informed me that there are massive problems with the 92 stock and TfL may within the next 10 years replace the entire lot. Again thanks everyone |
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Jun 11, 2008 21:26:56 GMT
I believe that it's against fire regs to leave barriers unmanned. Quite apart from that, what about disabled people / people will luggage who need letting through the manual gate; or people who were let through and told to pay at their destination; or people who have a dodgy ticket / Oyster who need someone to help them (eg say "I've no idea ring the helpline").
|
|
|
|
Post by cetacean on Jun 11, 2008 21:49:43 GMT
There are at least a couple of larger railway stations that have a secondary entrance with an unstaffed gateline, monitored by CCTV and intercom from the main gateline. But I'm not aware of any unstaffed stations with barriers.
The costs of reopening and operating the line would leave it needing an enormous subsidy, and I don't think there's any social or strategic economic factors that might justify that. Alternatively you could set the fares high enough to cover the costs, but then no one would use it.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Jun 11, 2008 22:16:27 GMT
I'd love the branch to be restored but I think chances are slim. In the latter years of the branch the line used different rolling stock to the rest of the service (the 1960ts [with a 1938 trailer]) so I don't see why we could not return to the same arrangement. There are going to be a lot of spare trains floating about soon! Why not use some spare double ended 67ts on the line-they could even run under ATO!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 23:18:53 GMT
I know about the typos i was stupis not to check them as i type so fast my spelling is never right If you could slow down a bit and use the spellchecker then I think it would really help you get your point across a lot better. |
|
|
|
Post by suncloud on Jun 12, 2008 8:42:02 GMT
... About the stations being un-manned would save alot of money, places such as Ongar and North Weald do nopt have any crime therefore people there are really not into jumping ticket barriers and not paying. ... Welcome to the forum... I think it's a bit of a wild assertion to say there's no crime in these areas... Yes it is a low-crime area with a mostly affluent middle class population... However a station without staffing could well attract not just any anti-social element there may be in the area, but also from other areas.... |
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Jun 12, 2008 9:56:37 GMT
Hi
It is a nice concept you have there. However I don't feel your reasons for are very strong from a economical point of view - don't forget LT had their reasons for closing the branch; I dont think they'll open it again just because of an enthusiast's dream!
But I am enthusiast for these kinds of things and if there was one for Aldwych, I would sign away so i will sign your petition with pleasure.
One further point, surely the fact both Epping-Ongar and Holborn-Aldwych are amazing to us forumers because they are abandoned? If we were to re open them, I can guarantee they will not be as good the second time (what with modernisations etc. - you just have to look at the route masters for this one!).
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Jun 12, 2008 11:22:57 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say Ongar had no crime; afterall the last 12 cars of 62ts to visit had to leave for scrap after such heavy vandalism.
The best long term solution to attract customers is to integrate it with the rest of the central line, however the cost would probably mean a shuttle if anything.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2008 11:36:52 GMT
If you want to attract customers and make it really useful, extend it beyond Ongar to Harlow and/or Chelmsford.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Jun 12, 2008 14:49:32 GMT
Or even Stansted..!  |
|
|
|
Post by max on Jun 12, 2008 16:18:42 GMT
After the overhead line disaster on the Great Eastern main line (happened on Monday and still not fixed), there would be rather a lot of takers for a Chelmsford to London via Epping service, even if it was all-stations. In fact, when there is trouble, many seasoned GE commuters go to Epping and arrange to be collected.
I read somewhere that Colchester to Shenfield is the busiest two track line in the country. Four-tracking would do much to ease this section of line, any problem anywhere and the whole thing shuts down. An Epping to Chelmsford link would probably be cheaper to do than four-tracking, and would make us less susceptible to total shutdown and weekend engineering. Either of these cuts off most of East Anglia from London. Both would do more for the area than upgrading the A12 to motorway standards, which is currently under discussion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 17:04:36 GMT
This is not going to happen! The Ongar branch closed due to lack of use and the need for millions to be spent on track upgrades. The people of Ongar and North Weald had the chance to keep the service running, LU experimentally reintroduced an all day service a year before closure, to see if it would encourage a higher usage, the service was lightly used as they chose not to use the service.
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Jun 12, 2008 17:12:29 GMT
Well of course it was going to be lightly used; it was an indirect service with a train every 45 mins with a ridiculously high fare. It should have been doubled and integrated in the first place instead of let to rot away.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 17:16:45 GMT
Well of course it was going to be lightly used; it was an indirect service with a train every 45 mins with a ridiculously high fare. It should have been doubled and integrated in the first place instead of let to rot away. When the all day service was reintroduced North Weald had a 20 minute service when nthe train reversed there on every other trip, admittedly Ongar still had a 45 minute service, the trains still ran empty. |
|
|
|
Post by maxtube on Jun 12, 2008 17:48:07 GMT
Well I'm for bringing back the Ongar branch, and I don't care what 'they' think! |
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Jun 12, 2008 18:15:23 GMT
Well of course it was going to be lightly used; it was an indirect service with a train every 45 mins with a ridiculously high fare. London Midland's Watford - St Albans Abbey line only has a train every 45 mins, no direct service to Euston, and more than one bus route between those places as well (320, 321 and 724), and a lot of people seem to use it. |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2008 18:27:41 GMT
London Midland's Watford - St Albans Abbey line only has a train every 45 mins, no direct service to Euston, and more than one bus route between those places as well (320, 321 and 724), and a lot of people seem to use it. Was that the case in the early 1990s too? my understanding is that almost every rail line* has seen an increase in patronage in the last 10-15 years. *Obviously excluding special cases like North Woolwich |
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Jun 12, 2008 18:30:45 GMT
So if Epping - Ongar was reopened, more people would use it than when LU did the experiment in the early 1990s.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2008 19:15:49 GMT
If the national trend holds true, then yes. However it is obviously more complicated than this!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 19:39:38 GMT
Can the Central realistically take more passengers towards Central London in the peak? Do these stations merit a proper rail service? should light rail/trams be used instead? As the crow flies, Ongar is 21 miles away from Tottenham Court Road and Amersham 23 miles. People complain about the new S-stock being too uncomfortable, would you fancy a longer journey (no fast trains on the Central) on a 92ts  A connection from Ongar to a National Rail station would be more useful - there's a reason LU closed it after all. It was used for local journeys that were done by car. Like Aldwych, it was closed because major work was required and it wasn't justified. It's future may be more hopeful if Crossrail 2 takes over the North end of the central but it's still unlikely. |
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Jun 12, 2008 19:39:45 GMT
Well I'm for bringing back the Ongar branch, and I don't care what 'they' think! Don't be so bias Max |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Jun 12, 2008 19:41:22 GMT
Just to put this into perspective, Ongar-Debden at 1980 prices £1.55, which is equivilant to £4.79 at 2007 prices.
However Ongar - North Weald at 1994 prices was 40p; that would be 57p now.
|
|
|
|
Post by cetacean on Jun 12, 2008 20:02:14 GMT
Watford Junction-Euston is 17 minutes. Epping-Liverpool Street is 38 minutes. My instinct is Watford-St Albans is much less rural, although I have been on either.
|
|
|
|
Post by max on Jun 12, 2008 21:01:09 GMT
It didn't help that the line was electrified on the cheap, without extra substations. The trains never got out of series.
|
|
as i type so fast my spelling is never right 
About the stations being un-manned would save alot of money, places such as Ongar and North Weald do nopt have any crime therefore people there are really not into jumping ticket barriers and not paying. The idea could be tested. I would like to write up a proposal and send it out to Downing Street, Epping Forest District Council and TfL. I KNOW FOR A FACT TfL will not be in favor at first but time have changed since the early 90's. The branch could be extremely profitable. 
