Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 15, 2008 18:02:35 GMT
I couldn't think of a good title for this question, but today at around 1730 there was a signal failure at Farringdon that led to the Circle being suspended clockwise, but just severe delays to the Met and H&C. Presumably Drivers of C stocks on the outer raril between the signal failure and Aldgate junction were told to become H&Cs. But what happens to those trains on the south side? It would be very confusing for punters to have a circle turn up at the platform when the PA says its suspended?
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Post by c5 on May 15, 2008 18:12:03 GMT
I couldn't think of a good title for this question, but today at around 1730 there was a signal failure at Farringdon that led to the Circle being suspended clockwise, but just severe delays to the Met and H&C. Presumably Drivers of C stocks on the outer raril between the signal failure and Aldgate junction were told to become H&Cs. But what happens to those trains on the south side? It would be very confusing for punters to have a circle turn up at the platform when the PA says its suspended? What would normally happen in that sort of failure is that the Circles would be reversed at Edgware Road, then either: reformed onto an Inner Rail service if there is a cancellation and a Train Operator is available, sent to Hammersmith, either to then come back to Edgware Road to run a shuttle, as there may be a gap on the WB H&C coming up as a consq of the EB delays or sent to depot with the train operator then being used to put the service right time. Reducing the number of trains through the area, keeps blocking back and late running lower! When they announce that the whole Inner, Outer or Both are suspended then there is usually one train around. Station control staff/supervisors are told that they will only usually go as far as Edgware Road or Moorgate, depending on the suspension area. Though quite often the first that the Train Op will know what they are doing is when they get back to Notting Hill Gate or when the Edgware Road Service Operator tells them to reverse! The Train Desription on the District will not be changed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 11:34:45 GMT
The Met controller made a very silly mistake regarding procedures during that failure yesterday. Not only that but he suggested something that is very much against the rules over the open radio channel, thus transmitting it to the entire fleet.
Luckily the driver stuck to his guns and did things properly. However had it been a new driver or someone not to well up on the rulebook they may well have done what was suggested - creating a huge safety risk and leaving themselves open to DB should something have gone wrong.
It really bugs me how they are so desperate to run a service that they try to coerce staff into breaching a safety procedure.
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Post by johnb on May 16, 2008 11:38:17 GMT
It really bugs me how they are so desperate to run a service that they try to coerce staff into breaching a safety procedure. Yes, curse their desperation to run a service. Don't they know this is a public-sector industry, and that therefore they shouldn't give a flying f***? That's not quite fair - obviously safety is important. However, it's absolutely right that the line controller is desperate to run a service, and as a passenger I'm very pleased that they are. I'd much rather get home with a minutely increased risk of incident (from miniscule to still miniscule) than spend two hours stuck on broken trains - aside from anything else, the blood pressure impact is far more likely to cause serious harm It's pretty much impossible from your (understandably) obfuscated description to tell what the score was this time round, but coming up with suggestions on how to get things moving seems like a Good Idea - and it's surely precisely the driver's job to explain if these break drivers' rules, as happened in this case...
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Post by Tomcakes on May 16, 2008 11:55:35 GMT
I agree - drivers are supposed to know the rules, so if the controller suggests they should breach them, they can point out they're not doing it as it's a breach of the rules. Problem solved.
Unfortunately, the attitude still seems prevail, that passengers are there as a distraction - and it doesn't matter if they get ripped off because Oyster is dodgy, or trains get canceled because the controller wants to go home and his relief is late and he doesn't want to wait 10 minutes to keep things running smoothly, or everyone's stuck in a tunnel for hours because a driver's not shown up to work.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 11:58:57 GMT
While I understand your frustration as a passenger (especially on the C&H), i do not think it's "absolutely right" that line controllers should be putting pressure on a driver to endanger themselves and all their passengers for the sake of a 5 minute delay.
While it is part of the drivers job to observe the rulebook it is equally the controllers job, and it's downright irresponsible to knowingly put pressure on a driver to break these rules.
The rulebook, as i was so often told in my training days, is "written in blood". IE the procedures are in place for a reason, usually because people have been killed in the past, so the rules evolve to prevent it happening again.
IF the driver had done the controllers bidding and derailed or hit another train etc everyone would be on here and all over the media saying the driver should be strung up, tube staff are all scum etc.
You can't have it both ways.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 16, 2008 12:02:32 GMT
Well, isn't the answer that the controller is disciplined, or at least brought to task and given a warning, for attempting to break procedure?
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Post by Tomcakes on May 16, 2008 15:45:43 GMT
How is it known that nothing is ever done - I would assume that disciplinary matters, even quiet words in the ear, are a matter between the employee and the manager.
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Post by swedishblue on May 16, 2008 16:46:38 GMT
How is it known that nothing is ever done - I would assume that disciplinary matters, even quiet words in the ear, are a matter between the employee and the manager. Managers (which Controllers are not) Signal Operators and Controllers face the same disciplinary procedures as anyone else. Controllers are more prone to be disciplined as all calls, radio and telephone, are recorded. After an incident, the controllers managers will usually be going through the tapes listening to how the situation was dealt with, and if there is any reason to think safety has been breached, that person will be dealt with. Like wise, anyone calling the Controller who makes an error, especially safety related, falls into the same category. While people talk about safety and pressure, it may be worthwhile for these "experts" to go and see what a Controller or Duty Manager (Stations or Trains) actually does on a day to day basis. It isn't all feet up reading the papers and enjoying the easy life. I would never dream of doing the controllers job, the pressure these people work under on a daily basis would be too much for most. As we are all humans, yes mistakes do get made, and most of us have probably had to deal with the result of these. With the boot on the other foot, perhaps we could also comment on some of the T/Ops and how they conduct themselves. It's not uncommon for one to have a SPAD and claim "tripped in the vicinity" , which is usually a blatant lie because they know they have had a SPAD but under union instruction claim a tripped in vicinity. Passing red signals and claiming something different is also a breach of the rules and puts lives at danger. If only everyone who worked for LU was so perfect, then we wouldn't need managers or controllers!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 16, 2008 17:13:01 GMT
It's not uncommon for one to have a SPAD and claim "tripped in the vicinity" , which is usually a blatant lie because they know they have had a SPAD but under union instruction claim a tripped in vicinity. Passing red signals and claiming something different is also a breach of the rules and puts lives at danger. If only everyone who worked for LU was so perfect, then we wouldn't need managers or controllers! Sorry but most of that quoted above cannot go un-responded to! Drivers have NEVER been instructed by the Unions to claim that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have had a SPAD. The Unions would NEVER be that irresponsible. And as for drivers commonly claiming that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have a SPAD; what a load of cobblers. Where's yer proof of that? I can assure you, as an LU driver, that there is an enormous amount of professional pride in the driving grade within LU and the vast majority of us would absolutely never risk our jobs by claiming anything other than a SPAD when one has occurred. Given the amount of CCTV around the network, coupled with trackernet......you'd be an absolute fool to think you'd get away with a cover up these days....
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Post by swedishblue on May 16, 2008 18:00:36 GMT
It's not uncommon for one to have a SPAD and claim "tripped in the vicinity" , which is usually a blatant lie because they know they have had a SPAD but under union instruction claim a tripped in vicinity. Passing red signals and claiming something different is also a breach of the rules and puts lives at danger. If only everyone who worked for LU was so perfect, then we wouldn't need managers or controllers! Sorry but most of that quoted above cannot go un-responded to! Drivers have NEVER been instructed by the Unions to claim that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have had a SPAD. The Unions would NEVER be that irresponsible. And as for drivers commonly claiming that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have a SPAD; what a load of cobblers. Where's yer proof of that? I can assure you, as an LU driver, that there is an enormous amount of professional pride in the driving grade within LU and the vast majority of us would absolutely never risk our jobs by claiming anything other than a SPAD when one has occurred. Given the amount of CCTV around the network, coupled with trackernet......you'd be an absolute fool to think you'd get away with a cover up these days.... Maybe not on your line, but it happens on others, as it does it mine. Trackernet cannot be used to prove or disprove a SPAD, as it cannot be used for safety critical decisions! I take a lot of pride in my job as a T/Op, but cannot say the same about some of my colleagues.
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Post by citysig on May 16, 2008 18:13:48 GMT
The Met controller made a very silly mistake regarding procedures during that failure yesterday. Not only that but he suggested something that is very much against the rules over the open radio channel, thus transmitting it to the entire fleet. Luckily the driver stuck to his guns and did things properly. However had it been a new driver or someone not to well up on the rulebook they may well have done what was suggested - creating a huge safety risk and leaving themselves open to DB should something have gone wrong. It really bugs me how they are so desperate to run a service that they try to coerce staff into breaching a safety procedure. As you may or may not have noticed, I have been pretty quiet of late and not posted for months - my work and private life has been somewhat busy. I have still been visiting from time to time, and although there have been topics where I was going to post but ran out of personal time to do so, this one simply could not go by without a response. In the first instance, how professional would you consider yourself to be to make such allegations on a publicly viewed forum, that a senior member of railway staff has acted - in your opinion - unsafe. Secondly, unless you were a member of the staff involved in the "incident" that I believe you are referring to, how can you ever be in full possession of the genuine facts. Thirdly, given that I am in possession of the facts, I would be very interested to know why you believe anything unsafe was suggested. You have to remember that the rule book does not account for each and every scenario likely to affect the railway, and there will always be occasions where the procedures have to be adopted to fit the event. Provided those doing the adapting have carried out secondary measures to ensure safety has not been compromised in any way, and provided that each and every person involved has a complete understanding of what is about to take place, where is the safety risk?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 16, 2008 18:54:06 GMT
regarding John's comments earlier in the thread, LU staff should be aware that those of us who do not work in safety-critical proffessions have the experience that health and safety rules have multiplied a thousand-fold over recent years. Our experience is also that bending or in some cases even breaking many, or in some aspects of life, most of these rules has all-but no impact on the safety risk experienced (imho this is a bad thing, as it leads to the breaking of rules that do have a genuine positive safety impact - cf the boy who cried wolf). In the absence of knowledge to the contrary (which not even all lay transport enthusiasts will have, let alone the general public) it is not unreasonable to assume that the rules railways run to can similarly be bent without compromising safety. This will be doubly true of those people who equate driving a train with driving a car (including a senior manager with a large railfreight company, who allegedly did not see why route learning was required) - and I challenge any car driver to say they have never broken the speed limit or other rule of motoring.
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Post by c5 on May 16, 2008 22:31:33 GMT
The Q grades no longer exist in Service Control or the Network Operations Centre.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 17, 2008 9:23:31 GMT
Thirdly, given that I am in possession of the facts, I would be very interested to know why you believe anything unsafe was suggested. You have to remember that the rule book does not account for each and every scenario likely to affect the railway, and there will always be occasions where the procedures have to be adopted to fit the event. Provided those doing the adapting have carried out secondary measures to ensure safety has not been compromised in any way, and provided that each and every person involved has a complete understanding of what is about to take place, where is the safety risk? That is a fascinating addition to this thread (italic+bold my addition). It seems all down to perception. There is a difference between doing something against the rules, and doing something you've never been told to before (i.e not in the book). Even that may not be the case here. Prakash and Citysig are both trusted and responsible members of this forum - - and still there is a huge difference in interpretation of an occurrence. One thing's certain - none of the rest of us are in a position to judge since we do not have the facts (and it's right that we don't here).
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Post by railtechnician on May 17, 2008 13:15:23 GMT
Sorry but most of that quoted above cannot go un-responded to! Drivers have NEVER been instructed by the Unions to claim that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have had a SPAD. The Unions would NEVER be that irresponsible. And as for drivers commonly claiming that they have been "tripped in the vicinity" when they have a SPAD; what a load of cobblers. Where's yer proof of that? I can assure you, as an LU driver, that there is an enormous amount of professional pride in the driving grade within LU and the vast majority of us would absolutely never risk our jobs by claiming anything other than a SPAD when one has occurred. Given the amount of CCTV around the network, coupled with trackernet......you'd be an absolute fool to think you'd get away with a cover up these days.... Maybe not on your line, but it happens on others, as it does it mine. Trackernet cannot be used to prove or disprove a SPAD, as it cannot be used for safety critical decisions! I take a lot of pride in my job as a T/Op, but cannot say the same about some of my colleagues. Have you ever wondered why trainstop heads are painted white? When I was a lineman we investigated allegations of 'tripped in the vicinity', back tripped etc because it cast doubt upon the integrity of the signalling system. I have no reason to believe that the practice has ceased because it is a legal requirement that all failures of the safety signalling system are recorded, investigated, reported and collated such that any recommendations for alterations of rules, regulations, practices, procedures and indeed signalling circuitry may be given due consideration at regularly convened meetings of the higher echelons of management. The first port of call following a reported trip, not occasioning a SPAD, would be the head of the trainstop to determine if indeed it had been recently struck and the white paint made it easier. It was not of course infallible but it was often a good indication, of course the trainstop would be monitored for several following trains and the signalling checked for proper operation. If I thought it was a SPAD that would be specified on my failure report. About 10 years ago some work was done on the Northern Line involving a detector attached to the trainstop head and a counter to monitor and record the number of times a trainstop head was struck. AFAIK it did work but I presume that it was not reliable enough to warrant installation or perhaps the money was not available to implement it or it may simply be that it was not deemed to be a value for money investment in terms of improving safety.
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