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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2008 21:47:26 GMT
If the man protecting the section was in the back cab of the train with the flag moving with him, it would be moving block! The point of moving block is that the 'block' is a certain distance behind the train and follows the train as it moves at different speeds. This makes the most efficient use of the track.
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Post by rayb on May 15, 2008 22:16:12 GMT
I have to say that this is where I was aiming - there was nothing in the description that says the presonnel involved should be next to a traditional signal and as such, the "safe area" is a given distance from the train in front dependent on the conditions (speed/visibility) rather than pre-determined limits.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2008 22:49:12 GMT
Errm. - at least I think that's a yes! Just had a quick look at the "rule" book and it does not explicitl say that. Errr.. having just looked at my rule book, it confirms what I thought (which is rather nice for a change! ;D )... 15mph over plain track, and 10mph over points Unfortunately on D stock there's no way of doing more than 10mph with the tripcock cut out.
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Post by c5 on May 16, 2008 1:06:31 GMT
it sounds like there ought to be a simpler way of doing it. could not some responsible person instruct the train operator waiting at the failed signal to do the scotching and clipping, using their train as the protection? I don't think there would be enough space to have serveral scotch and clips stored in a train cab! Plus certain locations have shallow depth points which require different clips and traction current must be dischargered, normally it is only discharged on request. The other issue is that the train operator is then leaving their train unattended on a main line and there may be 3 or 4 sets of points needing the be secured. If they were to "injury" themselves in the process then there would be no train operator either! Of course it would be nice if there were more Route Secure Visuals available! I believe only certain people are allowed to use the scotch and clips. It should still be a Station Supervisor or Operating Official.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on May 16, 2008 14:37:10 GMT
I have to say that this is where I was aiming - there was nothing in the description that says the presonnel involved should be next to a traditional signal and as such, the "safe area" is a given distance from the train in front dependent on the conditions (speed/visibility) rather than pre-determined limits. I think you might have misread this - it says:- "The section can start and end anywhere where there are places of safety for the start point supervisor and exit point supervisor to stand." i.e. the 'safe area' is about Personal Track Safety for the officials running the P-P working. Presumably in practical terms the start of P-P working would be arranged to be by the last operable signal and therefore the space interval behind and protecting the entering train would be achieved with the normal signalling system. Presumably also at the end of P-P working, all futher signals must be obeyed. What therefore are the rules regarding the superviser at the far end of the section authorising the next train through - i.e. how long must they wait/how far must the preceeding train have left the P-P working before they can authorise the next train through?
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Post by peanuts on May 16, 2008 17:02:52 GMT
The Exit Point Supervisor must - observe the tail lights of the train passing the end signal (i.e. perhaps a station starter) and also observe that signal return to danger (i.e. train in signalling section).
Once they have witnessed this - they can authorise the Start Point Supervisor to let the next train through the P2P area.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 16, 2008 17:26:58 GMT
Point to point (p-t-p) would almost always be put in between two stations cos it's far easier.
Once the train has passed through the p-t-p area, it would of course follow conventional signalling again - but given that the trip arm will probably have been operated whilst passing the p-t-p area....the three minute time delay will kick in once everything is re-set at the exit point; so in reality, trains won't actually continue at normal line speed straight away.
Much has been said about the quickest way to by-pass the signalling system during times of failure - don't forget folks, you are talking about by-passing the very system that keeps you all safe!!
In any case, p-t-p is just one of many procedures that can be implemented - it may the best option in a given situation, but then again it might not.
As for the man in the back cab with a flag idea - how would that work in bendy tunnels (amongst other places)?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 20:47:02 GMT
As for the man in the back cab with a flag idea - how would that work in bendy tunnels (amongst other places)? I was slightly ridiculing Ray when I made that comment about how moving block could work with P-P You could have a lamp attached to a long length of malleable wire within the overlap required for a train moving at 15mph ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2008 21:05:33 GMT
putney bridge was again another broken track wire on HH track
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Post by c5 on May 16, 2008 21:14:21 GMT
putney bridge was again another broken track wire on HH track The previous day it was E track!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 14:33:32 GMT
they had 2 tracks failing E which was blown fuses and J which was bobbing and was a blockjoint
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 17, 2008 17:27:12 GMT
Of course it would be nice if there were more Route Secure Visuals available! (I might be getting myself confused here, so bear with me) Would I be right in thinking that the RS visuals are remotely [1]operated - be it either from Earls Court or a plunger on the platform nearest to the affected set of points? Am I right in thinking that the RS visual proves that the air has locked the blades in either the 'normal' or 'reverse' state and the appropriate WL or/and (N or R)KLR or NKLPR/RKLPR have worked and detected the blades in a safe position; the RS visual shows that all this has happened and then the air is removed from the points, locking them until a T/O attends? [1] as in the points are not clipped/scotched by someone on the track - the signalling system sets and locks them itself, once the Route Secure visual is lit the affected points are locked in place allowing trains to pass over them and the RS visual will remain lit until the points have been fully checked and tested during engineering hours.
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Post by rayb on May 17, 2008 21:36:54 GMT
I was slightly ridiculing Ray when I made that comment about how moving block could work with P-P You could have a lamp attached to a long length of malleable wire within the overlap required for a train moving at 15mph ;D I really hope that there will be a subject on which I know more than you and that I have the good grace to explain things rather than blatantly take the p1ss.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 17, 2008 22:01:22 GMT
(I might be getting myself confused here, so bear with me) Would I be right in thinking that the RS visuals are remotely [1]operated - be it either from Earls Court or a plunger on the platform nearest to the affected set of points? Am I right in thinking that the RS visual proves that the air has locked the blades in either the 'normal' or 'reverse' state and the appropriate WL or/and (N or R)KLR or NKLPR/RKLPR have worked and detected the blades in a safe position; the RS visual shows that all this has happened and then the air is removed from the points, locking them until a T/O attends? [1] as in the points are not clipped/scotched by someone on the track - the signalling system sets and locks them itself, once the Route Secure visual is lit the affected points are locked in place allowing trains to pass over them and the RS visual will remain lit until the points have been fully checked and tested during engineering hours. I'll happily stand corrected, but my recent signaller training leads me to understand it more like this: The RS visual is used where a signal is failing to read over points, but the points themselves are working fine. The signaller can operate the RS visual button on his console (I believe we are talking control rooms here as a 'conventional' cabin has indications on the frame and would use route card working) - providing the circuit can read over the points, and the RS visuals on the ground and in the control room work, the points concerned don't need to be scotched & clipped.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 22:14:25 GMT
I was slightly ridiculing Ray when I made that comment about how moving block could work with P-P You could have a lamp attached to a long length of malleable wire within the overlap required for a train moving at 15mph ;D I really hope that there will be a subject on which I know more than you and that I have the good grace to explain things rather than blatantly take the p1ss. My apologies, from your initial post I got the impression that you knew your signalling, so my sincere apologies for that Moving block works on the principal that the train has its own block that creates a 'safe zone' round a train that means that there is a sufficient overlap (i.e the distance it would take for the train behind to be stop from full speed so that it won't hit the train ahead.) This allows more trains to be run as the train has one block that follows it around (and can change according to speed) rather than it needing more than one block that needs to be the size of the line speed rather than the train's current speed. I hope that is a half-decent explanation but there are better ones around! SEE: wikipedia
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 18, 2008 1:23:25 GMT
providing the circuit can read over the points, and the RS visuals on the ground and in the control room work, the points concerned don't need to be scotched & clipped. Our understandings concur! Though as you have had proper training in this and I am merely an interested observer our understanding of the application will differ. Many thanks.
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Post by railtechnician on May 18, 2008 7:37:54 GMT
providing the circuit can read over the points, and the RS visuals on the ground and in the control room work, the points concerned don't need to be scotched & clipped. Our understandings concur! Though as you have had proper training in this and I am merely an interested observer our understanding of the application will differ. Many thanks. What Colin has said about Route Securing is quite correct. It is about illuminating the RS visual where a signal that reads over points has failed but the points are operating normally. An additional relay, an AWLR, is introduced into the circuitry to ensure that the points are approach locked, this relay cannot pickup, once dropped, to release the point locking until the train has negotiated and safely cleared the turnout. Route securing is put in and taken out from the controlling signal desk but there is also a local control on the lever frame in the IMR. These controls IIRC work in such a way that route securing can be implemented either locally or remotely and there are indications on the signal desk and local panel to indicate whether route securing is in operation or not. As far as clips and scotches go there was a programme in place to install locked trackside boxes at all points with the correct types of clips and scotches within as appropriate. The idea was to ensure that the proper equipment was always available when required because in bygone days the clips were often 'borrowed' or locked away somewhere on a station where they could not be located!
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Post by trainopd78 on May 18, 2008 10:06:42 GMT
Those boxes are now in place, were a good addition as long as the staff replace them once they're finished with.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2008 14:32:41 GMT
only trouble is they do not hold the big clips for low profile points and M63's
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2008 18:14:02 GMT
Well I ask you. District out today between Whitechapel and Embankment, but luckily we can change at West Ham to get to our destination. However, on a clear run the points fail at Upney ( is there no hope for this line ? - was it the rain short circuiting the signals ?). The driver does an excellent job in jumping the red lights (not the correct term probably) and telling us beforehand what will happen (hold on). We get through slowly but safely and in good humour. My lovely missus has another claim to add to her 31 from last 12 months and I wonder if the proedures have improved since my first post(s).
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2008 18:22:29 GMT
actually barking cabin lost control for most of the areas it covers bromley by bow to dagenham east as a voltage spike expired old fuses which feeds the desk and diagram
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Post by happybunny on May 26, 2008 18:32:18 GMT
Plus signal main lost at Acton, signal failure at High St Ken, and a bobbing signal at Hammersmith WB starter! (all within about 45 mins of each other) Lovely !!
Also I don't know why they saw it necessary to run the Olympia's as a ECT only service today... there was still a platform available at HSK for them to reverse. It is torture for the drivers who have to do Oly-ECT trips (4 hrs of them) ... especially with a double ended unit (common sense really came into play there) !!
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 26, 2008 18:36:26 GMT
....especially with a double ended unit (common sense really came into play there) !! Is it really that much of a tight fit then??
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Post by c5 on May 26, 2008 18:38:57 GMT
The loss of signal mains in one of the IMRs was caused by water pouring into the IMR! Makes a change from it pouring into a signal cabin or control room!
For a change it seemed to be TubeLies that weren't on the ball today! ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2008 18:41:54 GMT
hammersmith came in just as i was going home grrrrrrrrrrrr it was a very damp track what caused it and had to be boosted
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Post by happybunny on May 26, 2008 18:44:25 GMT
The good old District controllers didn't think to tell me (or indeed other drivers.. i.e. a general announcement) it was bobbing (they knew, as the previous train had problems)... so I got a lovely shock as I closed my doors and wound up and it went back right in my face... thanks very much controller ....especially with a double ended unit (common sense really came into play there) !! Is it really that much of a tight fit then?? No but its bad enough having to walk through the train so many times in the day, without them making it worse by allocating a double ended... you have to mess about opening another door.. it doesn't sound like a lot.. but its a bit annoying ! If it was upto me they would run it as a 3 car when they are just running OLY-ECT (wouldn't take much to put a temporary shunt limit sign in the "yard")
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2008 19:32:38 GMT
I had Embankment reversers all day and both trains had a middle cab. And both of the middle M doors were a pig to get closed!
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Post by District Dave on May 26, 2008 19:43:50 GMT
HB - You mean you had to open and close another set of end doors when changing ends?
Blimey - the stress!!!!
Errr - there wasn't a 'spare' platform at HSK either - one was for Wimbos, one was for Ealings, the other was for Edgware Roads - I know - I spent all of two shifts going through there; check the timetable - it wouldn't have worked.
Did I see you doing OLY's today and stopped at EC4's having what must have been a yellow at REC4? Tssssskkkkkkk!!!!!!!!
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Post by happybunny on May 26, 2008 19:54:12 GMT
HB - You mean you had to open and close another set of end doors when changing ends? Blimey - the stress!!!! Errr - there wasn't a 'spare' platform at HSK either - one was for Wimbos, one was for Ealings, the other was for Edgware Roads - I know - I spent all of two shifts going through there; check the timetable - it wouldn't have worked. Did I see you doing OLY's today and stopped at EC4's having what must have been a yellow at REC4? Tssssskkkkkkk!!!!!!!! *blush* .... sorry I misunderstood.. I thought the Wimbo service, was just a 10 min C stock to Edgware Rd service.. both times when I was at HSK I was the only train in either of the bay road's. so I assumed this was the case
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 26, 2008 20:37:00 GMT
Southampton Central was flooded today, so buses were laid on Eastleigh-Bournemouth apparently. The local campsite was under water, and so the nearest Morrison's was packed with food shoppers, hungry campers, and those pi$$ed off with the weather and heading home.
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