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Post by ruislip on May 7, 2008 21:37:40 GMT
1) When were Northwood Hills reversers done away with? Did they ever use A stock when it was first introduced? Where did these trains turn back at? Was there a siding north of Northwood Hills for this purpose? This would have been a challenge when this part of the Met was rebuilt with 4 tracks. 2) Did the Uxbridge line wait until A-62 stock came on board, or were some A-60s used on it, say during the peaks, in the "beginning"? 3) In the Winter 1961 Underground Guide, one train left Uxbridge around 0530 for Aldgate. This was the only ex-Uxbridge offering to run as far as the city at this early hour. When it reached Aldgate, did it form a Circle Line train? This would be obvious, esp since both the Circle and Uxbridge lines used COP stock in this era. 4) On Sundays, an early am Uxbridge departure only went as far as Rayners Lane. If it returned to Uxbridge, where did it reverse? Could this have possibly been one of those staff trains that would serve the Uxbridge branch and head into town to form a Circle train? 5) I noticed that peak-hour services between the City and the suburbs started earlier and ended later than similar services during the later '60s and '70s. For example, the first train leaving Uxbridge for the City at the start of the PM peak left there around 1440. 6) I even noticed some ex-Uxbridge trains reversing at Moorgate and Liverpool Street instead of Aldgate. 7) I remember someone stating that peak-hour services in the early '60s were much denser than they would be later. My guess is that with the wider variety of stock available in those days (the beginnings of A stock and the latter days of F, COP, and T stock), such a peak-hour offering could be supported.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 7, 2008 21:59:21 GMT
Ah, a lot here: 1) Northwood Hills reversers were replaced when the 4 tracking was complete (1962?)! The local line stopped at Northwood Hills and terminated in a reversing siding in the location of the current up/down local lines. 2) The A60 order was only used on the Watford/Amersham lines because F and O/P (pcm conversions hadn't begun yet) were still running on the Uxbridge/Harrow services. 3) Not sure, but most likely would have been a 6 car CO/CP stock train that would become a Circle train. Circle trains were made up of 6 car CO/CP stock and Met trains ran as 6/8 car O/(mostly)P stock. 4) This is most possible ask mrfs 5) Not sure 6) Some Uxbridge trains reversed at Moorgate. Aylesbury/Chesham trains generally started at Liverpool St. 7) I guess so. There were 16 T stock trains 8x8 & 8x6, there were 8x8 car F stock trains used in the peak period only, and a mix of 6/7/8 car O/P stock trains. All A60s ran as 8 cars in the early days. Metman
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Post by ruislip on May 7, 2008 22:01:30 GMT
Ah, a lot here: 4) This is most possible ask mrfs Metman Tubeprune also might know.
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Post by metman on May 7, 2008 22:19:15 GMT
I'm sure he will....
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Post by mrfs42 on May 7, 2008 23:01:37 GMT
4) On Sundays, an early am Uxbridge departure only went as far as Rayners Lane. If it returned to Uxbridge, where did it reverse? Could this have possibly been one of those staff trains that would serve the Uxbridge branch and head into town to form a Circle train? Using Met No2 WTT 197 (18/6/62) as an example: Train 150 (P6 - metman ) off Ux 6.4 pssgr to RL arr 6.18, staff to WmPk, changing to the Bakerloo at Neasden, arrive WmPk 6.33, depart staff 6.44, column note ZZto Baker Street, return to Uxbridge (passenger) 7.10 column note YYZZ Calls at all stations Neasden to Finchley Road YY Calls at all stations FRd to N except Dollis Hill. Bakerloo to Met. road north of Willesden Green.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 7, 2008 23:15:33 GMT
3) In the Winter 1961 Underground Guide, one train left Uxbridge around 0530 for Aldgate. This was the only ex-Uxbridge offering to run as far as the city at this early hour. When it reached Aldgate, did it form a Circle Line train? This would be obvious, esp since both the Circle and Uxbridge lines used COP stock in this era. How about train 166 (P6) off Ux 5.26, arr Aldgate 6.25½ and go into the Circle (Outer Rail)? There was a Neasden starter that reversed at BkS 'To C'cle via E. Rd.' at 5.36, in all 6 trains went from No 2 section into No 1 section in the morning and kept on going in the same direction.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 8, 2008 18:57:25 GMT
Train 166 was probably (and stayed) a Met train. The neasden starters I believe also called at the (then) Bakerloo line local stations too.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 8, 2008 21:28:48 GMT
Train 166 was probably (and stayed) a Met train. The neasden starters I believe also called at the (then) Bakerloo line local stations too. Indeed, 166 stabled at Aldersgate at 12.39a.m., to form the 161 out later on that same day. Trains that went into the C'cle: First N starter (176, P6, 5.5) ety to FRd, Second (177, P6, 5.11) ZZ - this headed off to Edgware Rd, Third [1](163, P6, 5.34) ety to FRd, Fourth (166, P6) ex Uxbridge, Fifth ( B 162, P6) 5.47 ex Watford AA, Sixth (165, P6, 6.33) ety to FRd, Seventh (167, P6, 6.53) ety to FRd. The pattern seems to be broadly the same - but I'm too full of GnT [2] to concentrate on typing out more... ;D [1] this wasn't counted as the original 6; and I realise that my comment about N starters wasn't to be taken to mean straight off depot into service - see the Wf and Ux trains for example. Wot I did mean was that these 'Circle' trains originated at Neasden; sorry. B 'second' class train - for train regulation purposes (I think.....). ZZ calls at all stations N to FRd - however, all SB trains up to the 5.11 off N (which does a volte-face at Baker St) have the ZZ note, so Bakerloo local stations were always served in the early mornings going south by the Met. AA Connects at Moor Park with the 5.30 ex WmPk. [2] in the sun, watching another railway's steam engines pootle around.
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Post by metman on May 8, 2008 21:58:30 GMT
Train 166 was probably (and stayed) a Met train. The neasden starters I believe also called at the (then) Bakerloo line local stations too. Indeed, 166 stabled at Aldersgate at 12.39a.m., to form the 161 out later on that same day. Are you sure it wasn't at Aldgate? The short siding at Barbican wouldn't be used?
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Post by mrfs42 on May 9, 2008 0:02:28 GMT
Indeed, 166 stabled at Aldersgate at 12.39a.m., to form the 161 out later on that same day. Are you sure it wasn't at Aldgate? The short siding at Barbican wouldn't be used? No, I really do mean Aldersgate, honestly . 161 would start from there at 5.43a.m. and 166 would trundle in for a snooze at 12.39a.m. - as an aside 161 was stabled at Moorgate, becoming 174 the next day and then ending at Farringdon Sidings, becoming either 172, 175 or 171 (the day after that) which were all Neasden stablers. edit: There was a P Stock and a T stock booked to have a lunchtime siesta of about 2 hours at Aldgate on Saturdays.
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Post by tubeprune on May 9, 2008 11:14:53 GMT
Train 166 would have reversed at Aldgate to go inner rail. Circles of the period were numbered 161 to 167 outer rail and 171 to 177 inner rail. Any train with that number range starting from Neasden early in the morning would end up on the Circle. There was one I recall doing NDt - RL - BKSt - Circle.
The Aldersgate stabler/starter was in the long siding tucked between the CWL and Met Lines. The short siding was only suitable for a 5-car so it became disused when the Circles went 6-car.
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Post by ruislip on May 9, 2008 15:59:16 GMT
Circles of the period were numbered 161 to 167 outer rail and 171 to 177 inner rail. When did they take on numbers in the 20x and 21x range--when C stock was introduced, or before?
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Post by ruislip on May 9, 2008 16:00:55 GMT
Train 166 was probably (and stayed) a Met train. The neasden starters I believe also called at the (then) Bakerloo line local stations too. When they called at the local stations on the 'loo, I'm wondering what their destination blinds read. Baker St? Aldgate? Circle Line?
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2008 18:20:29 GMT
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Post by ruislip on May 9, 2008 21:18:25 GMT
ruislip-probably the destination of the reversing point! Suppose a train left Neasden depot, travelled the Bakerloo/Jubilee tracks stopping at all stations Neasden-West Hampstead inclusive, rejoined the Met tracks before Finchley Rd, and carried on to Aldgate--where upon leaving it would continue around the Outer Rail of the Circle. Would the blind say Aldgate, or would it say Circle Line?
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Post by mrfs42 on May 10, 2008 1:04:09 GMT
You'll have to guess.
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Post by metman on May 10, 2008 9:27:15 GMT
On arrival at Baker Street the train would probably say Circle Line, and be advertised on at the station too!
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Post by tubeprune on May 10, 2008 16:57:43 GMT
ruislip-probably the destination of the reversing point! Suppose a train left Neasden depot, travelled the Bakerloo/Jubilee tracks stopping at all stations Neasden-West Hampstead inclusive, rejoined the Met tracks before Finchley Rd, and carried on to Aldgate--where upon leaving it would continue around the Outer Rail of the Circle. Would the blind say Aldgate, or would it say Circle Line? It very often depended on the crew. If the turnround point was Aldgate, they would probably show "Aldgate" on the front. If they were going to become a Circle, they would probably set up "Circle" on the back wherever the train last changed direction, or more likely at the station before, ready for the change of direction at Aldgate. The driver would most likely change "Aldgate" for "Circle" at Liverpool Street going east, also ready for the change of direction. It was never scientific, just practical.
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Post by ruislip on May 10, 2008 18:51:17 GMT
You'll have to guess. I guess you know something that the rest of us don't ;D
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Post by mrfs42 on May 10, 2008 18:58:42 GMT
You'll have to guess. I guess you know something that the rest of us don't ;D Heaven forfend - I was thinking more along the lines of TPs reply, insofar as there were no hard-and-fast rules.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 10, 2008 19:36:27 GMT
(snippity-snip) 1) Northwood Hills reversers were replaced when the 4 tracking was complete (1962?)! The local line stopped at Northwood Hills and terminated in a reversing siding in the location of the current up/down local lines. Metman Where exactly? I've got a relief signalman's sketchbook which has copies of the illuminated diagrams for Northwood 'E' and Pinner 'G' and I can't find anything resembling a reversing siding - Northwood Hills appears on the edge of the Pinner diagram. I think the sketches date from the late 1940s - early 50s. I think the book is certainly pre-1953 as a mechanical layout is shewn for Ricky. I do, however have the Yellow Peril from 1961, entitled 'Bringing into commission new main roads between Harrow North Junction and Northwood Hills' TC Supp 34/61, which has the arrangement you speak of; prior to this I've only noticed a Northwood reverser in (I think) one of the 1938 WTTs, which was about school tipping-out time.
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Post by metman on May 11, 2008 0:01:31 GMT
The current Northwood Hills platforms were of course on the other roads thru the platforms. When the fast lines were built, they were constructed round the back of the current station. This meant that N'wood Hills could only be served by local trains. Because Northwood was poorly sited, it had to be moved. The local platforms (on the former fast lines) continued to be served by all trains.
As the fast lines were extended from Harrow, Northwood Hills was used as a reversing point. Basically a reversing siding was built in place of the current up and down local (existing) roads. The Harrow reversers were extended to Northwood Hills and all thru trains did not call at Nrth Harrow, Pinner and N'wood Hills. It was only till the current formation was brought into use that proper services as we know it started.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 11, 2008 0:29:11 GMT
It was only till the current formation was brought into use that proper services as we know it started. Yeah, much as I suspected. Mind ewe - your value of 'proper'.
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Post by metman on May 11, 2008 0:35:35 GMT
Hmmm, there was a temp signal frame controlled (from Harrow?I think) for the siding. This was all ripped out in 1962!
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Post by mrfs42 on May 11, 2008 0:39:07 GMT
Hmmm, there was a temp signal frame controlled (from Harrow?I think) for the siding. This was all ripped out in 1962! I know - bear in mind the the Met is <sigh> peripheral to my interests.
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Post by metman on May 11, 2008 0:54:16 GMT
Fair play, but one must not ignore the elite of the Underground! I'm off to bed!
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Post by mrfs42 on May 11, 2008 23:41:30 GMT
Fair play, but one must not ignore the elite of the Underground! I'm off to bed! Hmmm. The elite of the Underground must surely be the Victoria Line - a railway that was designed around the signalling. If you understand the Vicky - passenger flows, prior overlaps, coloured floodboards at Tottenham: by comparison with the easy, sweeping (headway) curves, the Met is just 'there' - nothing exceptional, nothing surprising (these days). ;D
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Post by ruislip on May 12, 2008 16:36:50 GMT
The current Northwood Hills platforms were of course on the other roads thru the platforms. Did this mean that Northwood Hills had an island platform before 4 tracks came into play?
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Post by Harsig on May 12, 2008 16:58:21 GMT
The current Northwood Hills platforms were of course on the other roads thru the platforms. Did this mean that Northwood Hills had an island platform before 4 tracks came into play? No, the platforms haven't moved since the station opened (although they might have been lengthened). I'm currently working on a set of diagrams which will show the various stages of the four tracking scheme.
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Post by metman on May 12, 2008 17:06:21 GMT
That would be great! As I understand it, Northwood hills was bypassed by the fast lines, which were then skewed onto the current (and only that that stage) slow lines. The through platforms at Northwood Hills then ran into a reversing siding untill the work was complete!
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