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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2008 13:01:11 GMT
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Post by Chris W on May 5, 2008 13:29:06 GMT
That story may or may not be accurate.... however to put it into perspective what percentage of road drivers need to attend re-training, but never do so...!!!! - I include myself that number in that we ALL should, but only a few decide to take advanced lessons. Why is it that just because I/we once passed a driving test, that in the eyes of the law, we should be safe to drive on Britain's ever busier roads until we are 70 without there being a structured system in place (bar speeding/stopped by the Police) to confirm that we actually ARE capable and safe! My attitude towards the report is that instead of being negative (which I suspect is the angle the reporter is coming) this is a positive thing, in that it proves that LU demand high standards from its drivers....!! All too often press stories/reports display a negative bias/insinuation as opposed to the reality of the situation...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2008 16:25:21 GMT
Yes Chris, its true to say that LU demands high standards from its drivers, but one could argue that they're not getting it. How? Well, the kind of re-training in question is only offered AFTER an incident. Whereas poor standards picked up on during say a drivers annual monitoring are not dealt with in the same way, usually just words of advice from the CA trained DMT.
As this article only refers to (post-incident) re-training, and not situations where a sub-standard performance has been identified, this, unfortunately, negates the positive slant you try to place on the article. Shame though, as it does sound like they're knocking us.
But keeping things in context, it must be remembered how many signals an LU driver passes in an average length shift, compared to, say, a mainline rail driver. The scope for a SPAD is, IMO, increased for an LU driver.
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Post by setttt on May 5, 2008 17:39:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2008 18:53:09 GMT
That headline is such a load of rubbish - a SPAD, handled properly, is in no way unsafe.
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Post by Colin D on May 5, 2008 22:32:40 GMT
Well said Chris W. I couldn't agree more.
Are train ops still sent for scheduled refreshers? I remember waaaaaay back motormen had a refresher every couple years at WCTC part of which took place in their simulator. An instructor would stand behind the "J" door and put different scenarios for the MM to find. Always thought that was a good idea, especially for anyone who went a long time without having a defect on the road
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Post by superteacher on May 5, 2008 22:47:23 GMT
Unfortunately, LU's response to this is to harp on about how such errors will be eliminated with the (eventual) introduction of ATO on all lines. They should really be informing the public of the excellent failsafe that exists (i.e. the trainstop). I'm not saying that SPAD's are acceptable, but they are far more serious on national rail, most of which doesn't have trainstop protection, or even ATP, nearly 20 years on from Clapham Junction . . .
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Post by Tomcakes on May 5, 2008 22:53:30 GMT
Clapham Junction, however, was not the first collision caused by a SPAD - nor was it the most destructive. I'm not sure a tripcock would be much use on NR - with higher speeds, not to mention fragmentation and the arguments over who would pay.
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Post by Tom on May 5, 2008 23:23:48 GMT
Clapham Junction, however, was not the first collision caused by a SPAD Clapham wasn't caused by a SPAD. The SPAD happened because of the wrong side failure of the signal and the crash only occured once the driver stopped to report the SPAD and unwittingly left his train where it was not being protected by the signalling.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2008 23:31:51 GMT
That headline is such a load of rubbish - a SPAD, handled properly, is in no way unsafe. The whole article is hyped up unprofessional sensationalised and misleading reporting I'd expect of a certain evening newspaper ..NOT from the BBC ! It also fails to address matters such as the root cause of many such SPADs such as the poor sighting of numerous multi SPAD signals. In the light of revelations about SN109 (I think it was) that the Thames Train passed in the Paddington disaster ...it would be more interesting to see exactly how many times certain signals had been passed at danger ...and more importantly what LUL are doing about the poor sighting of those signals. It is extreemly misleading to class what occurs in practice as "re-training" whilst it may be so called, in many cases retraining by any conventional understanding of the expression is not necessary. Certainly LUL would never ignore such occurances and all SPADs are fully investigated, but the whole tenure of the report to suggest 20% of drivers are not up to the job is just bo##@£ks. I am glad the RMT have constructed an appropriate response to this nonsence reporting !
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Post by Tom on May 5, 2008 23:42:05 GMT
That headline is such a load of rubbish - a SPAD, handled properly, is in no way unsafe. It's probab;y very debateable - I can think of one or two signals where a SPAD has a very high (possibly unnacceptably high if the risk assements were ever done) chance of derailment.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2008 1:03:25 GMT
Are train ops still sent for scheduled refreshers? I remember waaaaaay back motormen had a refresher every couple years at WCTC We now have to go through stock and rules refreshers every year as part of our licencing.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 6, 2008 9:11:32 GMT
Clapham Junction, however, was not the first collision caused by a SPAD Clapham wasn't caused by a SPAD. The SPAD happened because of the wrong side failure of the signal and the crash only occured once the driver stopped to report the SPAD and unwittingly left his train where it was not being protected by the signalling. Ah yes - sorry, my memory must be failing me...!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2008 11:21:21 GMT
LUL's response about bringing in auto-running is typical of their lack of respect for their staff (especially those of us that have done the job safely and professionally for years with no recognition). Rather than taking a chance to advertise the professionalism of the majority of their staff they take the opportunity to brag about how they'll de-skill our work and possibly do us out of job altogether with auto-running.
It is precisely this lack of respect for their staff that encourages poor performance, in the same way management "pressure" encourages people to ignore the rulebook in the name of customer service (and somehow get away with it!)
Well they can stick their auto-running and lack of respect for professional railway workers where the sun don't shine. I'll be off to take my skills, knowledge and experience somewhere it's wanted before then.
A company gets the staff it deserves and the quality of LUL's staff will drop in line with the company's treatment of us as the good ones leave or get laid off.
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Post by 21146 on May 10, 2008 18:53:39 GMT
Well they can stick their auto-running and lack of respect for professional railway workers where the sun don't shine. I'll be off to take my skills, knowledge and experience somewhere it's wanted before then. The trouble is other train operating companies don't want ex-LU T/Ops and any perusal of the adverts in Loco Journal show that all the TOCs are after is existing main line drivers which are poached from one company to another. The adverts nearly always refer to wanting "qualified" staff, and preferably on the traction operated by the company itself. The only other route in seems to be by joining at the lowest possible grade of station or on-board staff and taking a chance later with the internal recruitment campaigns. LU caused it's own troubles by doing away with the guard's job which was in effect a two-apprenticeship for T/Op during which you got to know rolling stock, signalled moves and general rules & regs. Even if it made no economic sense to have two members of staff on a train (except maybe to enforce Boris' booze-ban), maybe the Northern Line should have retained guards and thus served as LU's entry point to the train grades? Also internal recruitment on LU comes almost exclusively from new CSA's (long service ones would have applied years ago) and is thus being sourced from people employed under TFL's present day "customer-focused" politically correct-led agenda which has next to nothing to do with being a T/Op. Why should a potential T/Op have to demonstrate the TFL key competence of "equality", to show he (or she) won't just shut one group of passenger out when closing the doors? Years ago LT liked to recruit from people who'd been in the forces, emergency services, post office, other public transport operators etc, as this meant familiarity with a uniformed (not un-informed!), disciplined, hierarchy-led organisation. Nowadays it seems the opposite is the case and doesn't it show? Well there you go - rant over! PS - And we didn't report hitting autos as there was no black box TMS on board to spy on us, so no wonder the number of reported SPADs has gone up now!
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Post by railtechnician on May 11, 2008 1:36:09 GMT
Well they can stick their auto-running and lack of respect for professional railway workers where the sun don't shine. I'll be off to take my skills, knowledge and experience somewhere it's wanted before then. The trouble is other train operating companies don't want ex-LU T/Ops and any perusal of the adverts in Loco Journal show that all the TOCs are after is existing main line drivers which are poached from one company to another. The adverts nearly always refer to wanting "qualified" staff, and preferably on the traction operated by the company itself. The only other route in seems to be by joining at the lowest possible grade of station or on-board staff and taking a chance later with the internal recruitment campaigns. LU caused it's own troubles by doing away with the guard's job which was in effect a two-apprenticeship for T/Op during which you got to know rolling stock, signalled moves and general rules & regs. Even if it made no economic sense to have two members of staff on a train (except maybe to enforce Boris' booze-ban), maybe the Northern Line should have retained guards and thus served as LU's entry point to the train grades? Also internal recruitment on LU comes almost exclusively from new CSA's (long service ones would have applied years ago) and is thus being sourced from people employed under TFL's present day "customer-focused" politically correct-led agenda which has next to nothing with being a T/Op. Why should a potential T/Op have to demonstrate the TFL key competence of "equality", to show he (or she) won't just shut one group of passenger out when closing the doors? Years ago LT liked to recruit from people who'd been in the forces, emergency services, post office, other public transport operators etc, as this meant familiarity with a uniformed (not un-informed!), disciplined, hierarchy-led organisation. Nowadays it seems the opposite is the case and doesn't it show? Well there you go - rant over! PS - And we didn't report hitting autos as there was no black box TMS on board to spy on us, so no wonder the number of reported SPADs has gone up now! Very well said that man, there is a lot of truth there!
Licensing, competency assessments and similar do little or nothing to root out the lazy and incompetent, I'm sure everyone knows someone who fits the description but seems to be teflon coated. On the other hand they do reinforce what management already knows about the majority of staff, i.e. that they are hard working, competent and professional.
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Post by 21146 on May 13, 2008 8:41:00 GMT
Of course it's part of getting old that one thinks that things were done better in "my day". When I qualified as a Motorman in 1980, the wholly verbal final exam at White City with a Trainman's Inspector (terrible old gender-specific titles then, eh?) took all day. Even then there were senior M/M whose own exam had taken 2 days, during which they were expected to know power circuits and what contactors in the RPA were closed in the inch, series and parallel positions (line breaker 1, 2, P, S & G) and what numbers referred to the MG set wire, compressor synchronising wire etc. Ditto their practical side involved isolating or pulling air and electrical jumpers when dealing with rolling stock defects whilst we often only had to turn the FIS. So no doubt they thought we were "johnny come latelys" who'd had it easy.
Maybe we did, but I still feel LU's present recruitment process and emphasis on "customer service" is not producing the right pool of people for further advancement to T/OP or Service Control whilst many potentially competent people can't even get a foot in the LU door thanks to today's selection procedures.
Another problem is that expecting people to move from CSA to T/Op is a really big step. I don't think I'd have been happy to go from what was then Railman to Motorman and was thus fortunate that the Guard's grade served as a natural stepping stone between the two. LU made a big mistake in not keeping crew operation on one line, or even partial crew operation, for training and development purposes.
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