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Post by railtechnician on Apr 19, 2008 11:19:30 GMT
Can anyone shed any light upon thiis? Apparently a contract is out to tender for the replacement of all the motors on 85 trains. It is apparently worth between £90m and £130m so I guess even TfL isn't quite certain what the cost will be. It raises the question of whether there have been ongoing issues with the existing motors and also whether some consideration may have been given to converting the line to AC traction.
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Post by johnb on Apr 19, 2008 12:45:46 GMT
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 19, 2008 16:02:11 GMT
Thanks for that, I certainly never thought that the traction system would be converted from dc to ac but I did think that ongoing issues with the motors was the reason for the tender. It never hurts to pose a question! However, as to the potential cost I do understand how tenders work but it is usual for the tendering companies to set their prices and for the buyer to determine which tender, if any, is acceptable based upon criteria known only to itself. To my mind inviting tenders within a price range varying by up to 44% above a set minimum is potential to take TfL for a ride. One can't help wondering how much LUL was taken for a ride when it decided to purchase 1992 stock! However, if the tendering was handled in similar fashion one can see why! |
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Apr 19, 2008 17:12:44 GMT
If you actually read the first link posted by johnb carefully, you'll see that this is not an definite tender, but rather an invitation to see if the project is feasible within the budget allowed, hence the reason for quoting the figures. (Well that's how I read it anyway  ) |
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 20, 2008 6:28:22 GMT
If you actually read the first link posted by johnb carefully, you'll see that this is not an definite tender, but rather an invitation to see if the project is feasible within the budget allowed, hence the reason for quoting the figures. (Well that's how I read it anyway ) I had read that link before I even posed the question but I stand by the point that I made. Telling a company in advance how much one is willing to pay is a demonstration in how to waste public money as it puts the cart before the horse. The way that invitations to tender used to work was for the bidders to bid using their own cost estimates, not those of the client, and to win a contract solely upon the merits of their tender. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Apr 20, 2008 14:24:42 GMT
whether or not you like the principle of telling the potential bidders the price range or not, these are the rules that have to be worked to in EU public procurement! Of course one could quote a grossly incorrect price, but that can lead to a challenge from unsuccessful bidders later!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 20, 2008 16:04:57 GMT
Question is, if this did go ahead, where would the float be for conversion? The central is strapped for trains in peak as is.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 20, 2008 16:31:46 GMT
Question is, if this did go ahead, where would the float be for conversion? The central is strapped for trains in peak as is. Suppose it depends on how many trains are being modified at once. 85 trains in total - 79 needed for peak service. Not sure how many 92 stock are stopped at the moment though. |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 20, 2008 17:39:45 GMT
I would imagine if this plan gets the go ahead a temporary reduced peak service would be introduced to free up stock for mods.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2008 18:02:07 GMT
I think not telling the price range results in the sort of fiasco that was rife in IT in the 90's and beyond. The contract goes to the lowest bidder, the only way to win the contract is to bid low, and then everyone is amazed when the whole thing goes massively over budget, and doesn't work. (the passport application system is a case in point).
Many other developments have shown that if you don't set a minimum you end up with a pile of sh...., and the only winner is the one who wins the contract.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 20, 2008 18:07:46 GMT
I would imagine if this plan gets the go ahead a temporary reduced peak service would be introduced to free up stock for mods. Prepare for the crush of all crushes then! It's bad enough with 30tph! |
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Apr 20, 2008 18:36:25 GMT
I would imagine if this plan gets the go ahead a temporary reduced peak service would be introduced to free up stock for mods. Actually, they are already running a slightly reduced peak service, to allow for the ongoing motor problems at the moment. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 20, 2008 18:53:32 GMT
From what I can gather, before the 1992 tube stock, the central ran with 84½ 8car trains of 1962 tube stock and (originally) three 8car trains of 1960 tube stock. Thats 87½ trains, which coincidentally is the same number of 8car 92ts trains (inc w&c).
Would it really be that difficult and expensive to order a small extra batch of 96 or 09 ts to take the w&c on and transfer and convert the 92ts there to the central? How could the City of London Corp. object to newer stock replacing what they paid for?
Else you could run Woodford Hainult as a 4car shuttle to free up a few.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 20, 2008 19:46:58 GMT
I would imagine if this plan gets the go ahead a temporary reduced peak service would be introduced to free up stock for mods. Actually, they are already running a slightly reduced peak service, to allow for the ongoing motor problems at the moment. True, but this is achieved by cancelling trains from the current timetable - as far as I can see, the trains cancelled depend on what is available. If they are thinking about doing a few trains at a time, they may well issue a timetable notice, or even a new WTT. In terms of using 4 car trains on the Woodford - Hainault service, I don't think this would help, since you would need 2 X 4 car trains to offer a decent service, and this would still take up 4 driving motor cars. Plus, they are trying to build up traffic on this section, having introduced evening services in 2006. Taking away the through service via Hainault wouldn't exactly help! |
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Apr 20, 2008 20:02:20 GMT
Actually, they are already running a slightly reduced peak service, to allow for the ongoing motor problems at the moment. True, but this is achieved by cancelling trains from the current timetable - as far as I can see, the trains cancelled depend on what is available. If they are thinking about doing a few trains at a time, they may well issue a timetable notice, or even a new WTT. In terms of using 4 car trains on the Woodford - Hainault service, I don't think this would help, since you would need 2 X 4 car trains to offer a decent service, and this would still take up 4 driving motor cars. Plus, they are trying to build up traffic on this section, having introduced evening services in 2006. Taking away the through service via Hainault wouldn't exactly help! Whilst an actual Timetable Notice hasn't been issued, there are certain trains that are booked to be cancelled each peak. |
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 22, 2008 10:25:22 GMT
whether or not you like the principle of telling the potential bidders the price range or not, these are the rules that have to be worked to in EU public procurement! Of course one could quote a grossly incorrect price, but that can lead to a challenge from unsuccessful bidders later! I might've known, the EU screws us over once more. It has to be the most wasteful organisation in the world next to the USA! |
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Post by johnb on Apr 24, 2008 14:52:41 GMT
I might've known, the EU screws us over once more. It has to be the most wasteful organisation in the world next to the USA! No - as the man said upthread, "Many other developments have shown that if you don't set a minimum you end up with a pile of sh....". The "giving money to French farmers to do sod all" side of the EU is wasteful, but the procurement rules are a Very Very Good Thing that make it much harder for politicians to waste our money (whether through incompetence or through giving contracts to their mates...) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 22:24:07 GMT
I would like to point out that it is not too uncommon for metro trains to be refurbished mid-life with AC motors anyway. This was done in Hong Kong, Washington DC, and Chicago.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 24, 2008 23:07:21 GMT
Well let's hope that they go the whole way, and totally refurbish the stock, inside and out.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 25, 2008 0:20:46 GMT
Would it not be simpler/cheaper just to start from scratch?
I suspect that if the will was there, a version of the 2009 stock that fit the Central Line loading gauge with high-lift shoe gear and (probably) a left-hand driving position could be substantially delivered by 2012.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 25, 2008 1:11:48 GMT
I guess so, but it would be cheaper to go for a refurb I'm sure.
I expect, an identical order for the Central Line could be worked out. I quite like the 92ts, you can certainly feel and here the power kick in-which I quite like...
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Post by Chris M on Apr 25, 2008 1:41:02 GMT
The problem with the 92 stock is that its uncomfortable, shoddily built and about worn out.
The crush loading every peak period doesn't help it either but that is more a problem with the lack of alternative provision at the east end rather than with the trains themselves.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 25, 2008 15:53:02 GMT
I can't see them replacing the 92TS - would be a severe case of egg on the face! In addition to the initial cost of the fleet, millions have been spent om modifications.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2008 22:05:02 GMT
Would it not be simpler/cheaper just to start from scratch? I suspect that if the will was there, a version of the 2009 stock that fit the Central Line loading gauge with high-lift shoe gear and (probably) a left-hand driving position could be substantially delivered by 2012. It would likely to be much more expensive to build new trains. I also doubt that Bombardier have the manufacturing capacity to design and build a new fleet of trains for the Central Line before 2012. |
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