prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 13, 2006 21:46:44 GMT
There is indeed a tunnel cooling project, but as adw correctly states this is for deep tube only and not sub-surface lines.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:30:31 GMT
Incidently, I just noticed the 'S' Stock thread (which is now locked). Just to be clear, the external images shown in a link there are way out of date. They were Bombardiers initial artists impressions used to secure their bid for the new stock, the design has evolved since then.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:36:53 GMT
What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock? Sprung seats and a sonya-free quiet coach please. I am planning to take some of guys from Bombardier to the Acton Museum in order for them to fully understand what we mean when we say 'heritage'. I don't think this will result in sprung seats ( ) but it should show them the sort of end product we are hoping to achieve. With the DDA and RVAR Sonya is here to stay, but the system should be more intelligent and better designed.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:37:52 GMT
What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock? Locomotive hauled with a buffet coach. You have obviously never eaten in an LT canteen, a buffet coach is the last thing you want! ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:48:05 GMT
off the top of my head: comfy seats. We're working on this! trains that are clean - and so trains that are easy to clean and keep clean. With the cantilevered seats this should be much more achievable. clear destination displays We're working on this too. quality PA speakers that are loud and clear. Announcements that are too quiet or unclear are worse than no announcements. The system supplied will meet human factors standards, something no other system has done to date. passenger alarms with a unique identity which is reported to the t/op (also it should be printed on the alarm itself as a backup to (a) the T/op's memory, (b) the system not working correctly. so that if I need help they can get to me quickly and directly. If it is not me that needs help then I am not delayed longer than needed. The ability to talk to the driver is good also. There should also be a way for any other member of staff who happens to be travelling on the train to be notified of an alarm as they may be able to help quicker. Perhaps a signal could be broadcast inside the train which is received by a pager type unit carried by staff? The onboard computer will notify the T'Op of exactly which alarm(s) have been operated. In addition there will be a visual indication for platform based staff. Talk back and CCTV will also feature. smoke alarms that detect cigarete smoke and make a noise alerting the whole carriage to the smokers (peer pressure to stop) and to the T/op to make an anouncemnet/kick the poeple off the train/stop the train as apropriate There will be smoke alarms but not for this purpose, nice idea though! clear indicators (internally and externally) of which line the train is running on. If the idea is that they can be swapped between lines at a moments notice, then a dot matrix display might be best. If swapping is less frquent then a large sign changeable in the depot with a broad line colour stripe and bold line name. In the latter case, line-specific strip maps rather than a one-for-all would be better than a one-map-fits all design. 8 cars will be line specific but 7 cars will need a generic map in order to be flexible. Internal/External displays will feature. lots of grab rails in locations convenient for people of all heights. wide doorways. A work in progress, which has been aided by all your comments on this issue here on the forum (Thanks guys!). The speaker that plays the door closing alarm should be located centrally above the door, not at ear-level for a person standing at the side of the door (like on the 92stock) - it is not pleasant getting this alarm in you lughole at every station between Oxford Circus and South Woodford! Not sure on this one, but I have made a note to check with the engineers, thanks. Perch seating as on 73ts - this can be very useful if you are wearing a rucksack. Will tip up seats suffice?
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Post by Christopher J on Jul 15, 2006 0:49:35 GMT
Locomotive hauled with a buffet coach. You have obviously never eaten in an LT canteen, a buffet coach is the last thing you want! ;D It's funny you should mention that PRJB! When I went for my workshop with LUL for the apprenticeship a couple of months ago at Ashfield, we were warned that the food wasn't going to be the best thing we would of tasted, lets just say the Fish & Chips I had for lunch was ’interesting’. ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:51:07 GMT
Well I would like to see plug-doors. According to Q8 people are less keen on wrestling with them. Though with the extremely limited space on the tube stocks, I'm not sure if this is feasible. These will not feature, sorry. On this subject, CO/CP's with their flared bottoms solved this problem apparently. Taking the thread further west here I know, but how modern do those trains look - even today? Great!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:52:19 GMT
They might look nice, but they wouldn't be practical on LUL. Apart from the fact that they take longer to open & close, how would the train fit into a tunnel section if they got stuck open, for example (ie, a defect whereby a member staff travelling etc etc). Exactly Colin.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 0:55:44 GMT
Oh dear. still, the part about hot platforms can be solved mate, just that it's going to cost a bomb. Install screen doors. Screen doors arn't suitable for many LU stations, as the platforms can sometimes be heavily curved and/or on a steep gradient. Also money is a big problem! Stephenk hits the nail on the head here too. A railway first opened in 1860 doesn't lend itself to PED's (platform edge doors). The cost is not only for the equipment and it's installation either, PED's are heavy and require older platforms to be rebuilt or reinforced.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 1:00:15 GMT
will the trains also have opening windows? Travelling A stock the other day, they were a godsend! What if the aircon fails? will the train be taken out of service?? No opening windows as this would play havoc with the air con, making it work harder and expel the cooled air to atmosphere. The train has a back up system and as it has through gangways air flow should be improved too.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 1:01:41 GMT
Dunno if it was mentioned already but Harrow Transport Association (or something similar) have started a campaign for saving the seats on the 's' stock destined for the met main line service. Its called 'SOS'....Save Our Seats.... Really? Do you have an more info on this?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 15, 2006 1:05:22 GMT
You have obviously never eaten in an LT canteen, a buffet coach is the last thing you want! ;D It's funny you should mention that PRJB! When I went for my workshop with LUL for the apprenticeship a couple of months ago at Ashfield, we were warned that the food wasn't going to be the best thing we would of tasted, lets just say the Fish & Chips I had for lunch was ’interesting’. ;D See, I told you! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2006 13:11:46 GMT
will the trains also have opening windows? Travelling A stock the other day, they were a godsend! What if the aircon fails? will the train be taken out of service?? No opening windows as this would play havoc with the air con, making it work harder and expel the cooled air to atmosphere. The train has a back up system and as it has through gangways air flow should be improved too. Not even windows that can be opend with a J door key, like the air conditioned Electrostars on South Eastern have?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 0:07:25 GMT
No opening windows as this would play havoc with the air con, making it work harder and expel the cooled air to atmosphere. The train has a back up system and as it has through gangways air flow should be improved too. Not even windows that can be opend with a J door key, like the air conditioned Electrostars on South Eastern have? Someone very senior ( very senior) asked me this exact same question in the lift at Broadway the other day. As 'S' has a fall back vent system in the event of the train going into load shed windows should not be necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 6:57:09 GMT
Well, hello again. As stated earlier, 7-car S Stock will have to carry more than one type of line map. So, to fix this problem, why not have slidey-slots where you just slide the map in and Bob's you uncle, a line map. Then if you need to change it, just slide it out and slide in a new one. If there is enough space in the cab, you could dump the spare maps there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 7:17:36 GMT
Or perhaps some sort of rotating system, although there may not be space for that. It would stop the maps going missing though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 7:29:02 GMT
Or a "flexible information display", such as this one on the new R160 trains in NYC www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45348Something similar is also used on some Prague buses and trams.
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Post by trainopd78 on Jul 16, 2006 13:04:04 GMT
Not even windows that can be opend with a J door key, like the air conditioned Electrostars on South Eastern have? Someone very senior ( very senior) asked me this exact same question in the lift at Broadway the other day. As 'S' has a fall back vent system in the event of the train going into load shed windows should not be necessary. So in a major emergency, the juice goes off, the batteries are guaranteed not to go flat if stuck between stations for 40 mins off juice? I still think, operationally, opening windows (locked) would be a good idea just in case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 13:33:14 GMT
Someone very senior ( very senior) asked me this exact same question in the lift at Broadway the other day. As 'S' has a fall back vent system in the event of the train going into load shed windows should not be necessary. So in a major emergency, the juice goes off, the batteries are guaranteed not to go flat if stuck between stations for 40 mins off juice? I still think, operationally, opening windows (locked) would be a good idea just in case. I second that. We still see cases where people are stuck on a train for 2 hours, and the one fall back that can't fail is an open window.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 14:27:46 GMT
Or a "flexible information display", such as this one on the new R160 trains in NYC www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45348Something similar is also used on some Prague buses and trams. That would be better, it would be clearer and take up less space.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 16, 2006 19:28:12 GMT
As the H&C,teacup services are going to be 7 cars,are the emergency reversing points at Liverpool St and Farringdon going to be removed or moved back?Also,I take it the sdgs at Farring will no longer be used as there is no room to extend them to 7 cars.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 20:18:48 GMT
Well, hello again. As stated earlier, 7-car S Stock will have to carry more than one type of line map. So, to fix this problem, why not have slidey-slots where you just slide the map in and Bob's you uncle, a line map. Then if you need to change it, just slide it out and slide in a new one. If there is enough space in the cab, you could dump the spare maps there. Hello yourself! I've been abroad for the 7/7 period. The 7 car trains will have a generic line map similair to what you see on a 'C' Stock today. It would be an operational nightmare if we had two different types of maps for the 7's, even if they were really clever and rotated.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 20:22:37 GMT
Or a "flexible information display", such as this one on the new R160 trains in NYC www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45348Something similar is also used on some Prague buses and trams. That looks really interesting, I do wonder if it may be a little over complicated? You can't go wrong with a straight forward line diagram. I will raise this with my boss though.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 20:28:00 GMT
So in a major emergency, the juice goes off, the batteries are guaranteed not to go flat if stuck between stations for 40 mins off juice? I still think, operationally, opening windows (locked) would be a good idea just in case. The standards call for two hours battery life for load shed items, and that is how long the fallback system will operate for as a minimum. A couple of things to bear in mind is that these trains are through gangway so the airflow should be improved, and getting staff through to unlock windows in an emergency is simply not feasible. Now that I have said all that, I am going to raise this with my boss and the engineers. At the very least we, as the project, must listen to you and re-visit this to ensure we are going in the right direction. I don't want another D78 fiasco on my hands!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 20:32:45 GMT
We still see cases where people are stuck on a train for 2 hours, and the one fall back that can't fail is an open window. Point taken. This was the whole point of asking for your opinions, I will raise it and see what happens. Naturally I will feedback to you guys here too. As a gentle reminder to all you LU staff: There is a dedicated e-mail for you to raise any issues that you want around 'S' Stock - USE IT please!!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 16, 2006 20:36:45 GMT
As the H&C,teacup services are going to be 7 cars,are the emergency reversing points at Liverpool St and Farringdon going to be removed or moved back?Also,I take it the sdgs at Farring will no longer be used as there is no room to extend them to 7 cars. The whole SSR is going to be re-signalled as part of the upgrade, so I guess stopping marks for reversing points will move anyway as part of that work. The stabling points on the entire SSR are currently being measured as part of an overrall stabling strategy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2006 23:14:17 GMT
I agree with the previous posts about the need to provide windows that open, if only after being unlocked.
But what about the ability to release the doors from inside the saloon? If a train is trapped on open line during a failure, and the train must be evacuated, having the ability to open some of the passenger doors from inside the train would be useful, in terms of pax and T/Op safety (who wants to trip over the ballast and break something?) All you would need is a release cock behind a lockable panel that works the same way the release on the D78s do today.
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Post by trainopd78 on Jul 16, 2006 23:27:24 GMT
We still see cases where people are stuck on a train for 2 hours, and the one fall back that can't fail is an open window. Point taken. This was the whole point of asking for your opinions, I will raise it and see what happens. Naturally I will feedback to you guys here too. As a gentle reminder to all you LU staff: There is a dedicated e-mail for you to raise any issues that you want around 'S' Stock - USE IT please!!You are a star!! Glad to know we've got someone good trying to get this right. An e-mail will follow in the not too distant future.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 17, 2006 18:07:01 GMT
I agree with the previous posts about the need to provide windows that open, if only after being unlocked. But what about the ability to release the doors from inside the saloon? If a train is trapped on open line during a failure, and the train must be evacuated, having the ability to open some of the passenger doors from inside the train would be useful, in terms of pax and T/Op safety (who wants to trip over the ballast and break something?) All you would need is a release cock behind a lockable panel that works the same way the release on the D78s do today. Oh no! I am deeply opposed to emergency egress devices in the saloon. I cannot think of a scenario where it would be safer for customers to self detrain rather than await assistance. Ah, hang on! Do you mean a device for staff to utilise that is not available to the customers?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2006 18:25:04 GMT
I agree with the previous posts about the need to provide windows that open, if only after being unlocked. But what about the ability to release the doors from inside the saloon? If a train is trapped on open line during a failure, and the train must be evacuated, having the ability to open some of the passenger doors from inside the train would be useful, in terms of pax and T/Op safety (who wants to trip over the ballast and break something?) All you would need is a release cock behind a lockable panel that works the same way the release on the D78s do today. Oh no! I am deeply opposed to emergency egress devices in the saloon. I cannot think of a scenario where it would be safer for customers to self detrain rather than await assistance. Ah, hang on! Do you mean a device for staff to utilise that is not available to the customers? Exactly! I explicitly stated that any emergency door release mechanism will be behind a removable panel that can be unlocked with a J door key. The thought of providing a passenger-accessible release mechanism inside the saloon is SCARY!!! Besides, if the S stock really is gangway stock and not car stock, it's not like it would be hard for the T/Op to reach...
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