Photos and rules

As you say though, it is impossible for me to discern how reliable information received is just by the fact that someone appears to have an interest in the system. Ultimately, any information received should be dealt with accordingly regardless of it's source.
I would expect that information supplied by an enthusiast would be much more accurate and detailed than from an normal customer, but the same could probably be said of a regular commuter. Additionally, whilst this would save time on initial investigation I would still treat the information the same as any other that came in.

On an aside; although it may not be possible to assess the reliability of information, there was a time when staff were advised how to assess the reliability of passengers.
In the past, staff at the White City training school advised train crews that if they needed to detrain in a tunnel, they should walk through the train seeking police officers or doctors who might assist them. It was thought that people in these professions would be more likely to keep a level head and less likely to panic, despite not having any experience of how to handle the situation.

Yes, I was taught the very same thing when I went through White City. If memory serves it was mainly centred around if as a guard you had to leave the train in an emergency. The idea was to look for someone in uniform (security guard, copper, anyone!), as this gives them an air of authority, to hold the fort until you got back. I personally always looked for Rugby players, who's going to argue with them? ;D

That's what I was going to say.

Probably - but hey........... stuff happens.

And right now I have a bottle of Muscadet to drink and Rory Gallagher (Google him!) in my ears

lol - check my amendment.....

Oh yes. It's the only way to do it.
I wear an old SA hat badge as well, that way everybody knows v3.1 is coming!

Lucky sod, Dave!

That is the sad part from an historical viewpoint. Most people take pictures of something that is new or of things that are about to disappear.
In between there is often a huge gap in the photographic record.

This is one of the reasons that I take photographs of whatever comes my way. Yes, I will sometimes (when I can) go out and photograph the new and unusual (e.g. I've taken lots of photos of the new FGW livery).

However, I also take photographs of the normal. Yes, this results in my taking hundreds (literally) photos in a day of sometimes very similar things. There is only so many different angles you can photograph a 158 arrving at a two-platform station! You never know when things will change, for example I took a whole load of photos at Patchway station near Bristol a month or two back, including the not-very-distinctive station. When I passed through there the other day I noticed that the bridge had been replaced by a new (or possibly temporary) one.

I probably have literally hundreds of photos of various "boring" DMUs, but at some point in the future they will have moved on. So when I was at Newport the other day photgraphing the Class 50s 37 and 47s on the shuttle services I also took photos of the 170s, 143s, HSTs, etc.

I know I am very indescriminate in what I photograph, and I am not very pickey with what I keep. So what I share is a mixture of the occasional absolutely birlliant shot, a lot of good, some average and the occasional poor photo. I've had complains about this (Sorry v3.1 I'm just not pickey enough to uphold the art in its purest form), but if the photo shows something I haven't got any better then I generally keep it, unless its very bad. I also keep similar photos - I never know what someone is interested in and so I don't know which of my photos will be just what they want to show - perhaps one of my photos will be the only one that survives of something in the background.

I also do not know what others do with their photos, are they keeping them for themselves, selling them? I ultimately (when I get around to it, I'm not very good at sorting etc!) upload all my photos to the under a copyleft license. I figure this is the best way to document for future generations the way things were in the era we live in. Just as now people really enjoy looking at photos of how things were that cannot be recreated on heritage railways for whatever reason (have you ever had a loaded coal train on the Wizzer Phil?).

I do the same when I get to photograph on LU - a D stock at Wimbledon is nothing noteworthy today, in 20 years?

As for getting stopped, I've been stopped only four times in total, thee in London and never on LU. I ask for permission when I see someone free, but if I'm just passing through the station I don't generally go out of my way.
Bristol Temple Meads: Very officious "dispatch team" member, asked to see all my photos (after he saw the first few he didn't bother to look at the rest), then he escorted me to the information place on the other side of the station where he waited with me while I let people with travel queries go ahead of me, and then asked for permission (again - I'd asked a different chap when I arrived at the station) was told "don't take photos of staff, don't use flash, use your common sense: keep away from platform edges, don't go down the ramps, don't get in the way; if the fire alarm goes off [gave a description of what it sounds like] you need to make your way to the assembly point in the long term car park unless staff tell you otherwise". The officious chap asked the information chap if I should be signing in, "no real need" was the reply so the officious chap walked away with scowl.

Paddington NR: Told by a (very nervous) station cleaner that I was violating Network Rail's copyright and might be a terrorist by photographing the station

Tower Gateway DLR: Told I couldn't photograph on the DLR without permission by a plain-clothes BTP officer.

Fenchurch St NR: Was escorted off the platform to the information office by two members of platform staff (I'd asked a member of staff walking past who said "no problems") who informed me I needed prior written permission from Network Rail to photograph on any station in Great Britain. When I asked how to conact them to get permission I was basically told to look it up myself and stop asking difficult questions.

It doesn't just happen with railways though. I was photographing the outside of Wells cathedral (SLR-like camera and tripod) when an old woman gave me a right earbashing about suing me if any of my photos turned up in magazines. Despite the fact that 1. I was taking photos for personal use, 2. you don't need permission to photograph the outside of Wells Cathedral (at least not for personal use), and 3. I had persmission anyway and was wearing a badge (i.e. a bright yellow sticket) that showed I had permission to take photos inside (where you do need permission). Although quite how she was going to follow up her threat I don't know as she didn't even ask me my name!

Sorry this is a largely off-topic ramble, but I'm sure theres some relevant stuff in there somewhere!

ChrisM has made some very good points on this subject today.
Since digital photography started to take-off, people have been taking more and more photographs, but research suggests that less is being saved. In the days of film, we tended to hold onto all of the negatives, even if we did not always know where they were. Now, we have a delete button for pictures that we feel are not up to standard. I tend to save everything to disc - just in case.
A classic example of this, which I thought that I had mentioned in this forum (but which I cannot find) is the case of the C&SLR rebuilt Ashbury carriages. When we x-rayed the restored carriage at LTM, we needed a photograph of a rebuilt carriage to refer to. There were no known photographs anywhere. I searched and searched every inch of every photograph and eventually found a partial photograph of one, showing the precise details that we required. The Ashbury was only visible through the window of a different type of carriage that had been photographed at Stockwell depot just before that had been scrapped.
Like ChrisM says, you never know what future generations are going to find useful.

Some very good point have been made here - one thing that is obvious is that there is NO single policy being employed by station staff regardless of what the rules actually say. It just seems to be that stations, be they National Rail or LU, seem to almost make it up at the time, giving whatever excuse comes to mind of the member of staff doing the challenging. THATS THE MOST INFURIATING THING

The one thing I've ascertained is that on the whole photographers are viewed with hostility, perhaps because we're deemed either not to be customers or simply a nuisance. The approach seems to be to create so much conflict that we give up and go away!!

Perhaps the cause is because information about policy is not being passed onto SA's and station staff improvise based upon their mood at the time or opinion of the rules be that accurate or otherwise

I wonder if a letter to LU/National Rail... or the railway press might shed some light on this..... or would I/we be wasting my/our time

Opinions please... is this suggestion a waste of time and are my comments an accurate assessment?

As far as NR goes, and I think has been mentioned here, there is a document available for railway pohotgraphers, agreed by ATOC, saying what is and not acceptable. My lad carries this with him all the time and it earned him a free bacon roll and a coke when an overzealous SA at Nuneaton tried to move him on (don't ask - it's a LONG story!!).
And on LU we have already had mentioned the excerpt from the Conditions of carriage which our photographers are recommended to carry.
The rest is down to staff knowing the rules, and that there are far important rules for staff to learn. Carry the papers with you and staff can't argue........

The Tfl conditions of Carriage are at www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/downloads/Conditions-of-Carriage-06.pdf

It may be worth taking careful note of the contents of paragraph 4.5 which reads:-

4.5. For safety reasons, on our bus services, in the enclosed parts of our bus stations and on London Underground you must not:

• smoke;
• use bicycles, roller skates, roller blades, scooters or skateboards;
• take flash photographs and/or use a tripod or other camera support equipment;
• use emergency exits except in an emergency or when instructed to do so by our staff.

Additionally, on London Underground you must not use the interior doors between the carriages of our trains except in an emergency or when instructed to do so by our staff.

You may be prosecuted for disobeying these requirements.

I found no other mention of photography. ;D