Photos and rules

Good for him. So where is the other story and where can we see his pic?

As far as I am aware, and I am not certain here by any means, if you are taking photo's for 'official' use (as in press or mags etc) you need permission from the press office and are usually escorted. As for private individuals taking photo's for personal use, as long as there is no use of flash photography there shouldn't be a problem. Let's face it, we would need a member of staff per customer to enforce a no photo's ban! ;D
I can ask someone from the press office as to what the official line is and let you know if you like.

Yes as a member of station staff I would concur with what has been said above, in that flash photography is forbidden. Also tripods cannot be used on the platforms, elsewhere on the station, it is at the discretion of the supervisor. Commercial photography/filming has to be arranged with lul and a permit has to be obtained. There does appear to be confusion though as when the British Transport Police on site, and someone wants to take pictures for their own personal use, the btp get very officious and say no, when I explain the lul viewpoint, I am told I am wrong, which I know is not the case. As for the jobsworth sa, it might be better to have a word with them, via the supervisor, rather than making it official, they might have been misled as to the rules. Doesnt forgive the surly manner though.

If I am taking pics at Northampton, the Silverlink / NR staff like you to ask first, then they are OK.

I am likely to be taking some pics on LU soon, would I best to apply for the photographer's permit, such as the one Version 3.1 has?

It used to be in the traffic circular fairly regularly, havent seen it much lately though.

Phil et al

I was at Earls Court station late December last year taking photos of C/D stock (without flash) and was told by a SA that photography was banned on LU. I got the impression that I was decidedly unwelcome and the said SA's attitude was hostile and confrontational. Seems such incidents are not uncommon.

I've just had a little look on DD older news section of the forum and found the following (see links below):

www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/photos_on_lu.html

www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/using/conditions.asp
The 'Conditions of Carriage' document can be downloaded from this link - the relevent part is on page 8 (section 4.5) of the updated document.

www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/arts/filming/filming-faqs.asp
This link gives details of when permission is required for filming purposes more than private/personal photography, and also has an e-mail address you can contact for direction and advice.

Hope that is of use

Best wishes

Christopher

Simon is at the stage where he takes pics mainly for his own use (his photopic site is advertised here in the appropriate board) but is starting to get some published if possible. So is it commercial? Not really, but......

When he goes to ANY NR station he ALWAYS asks permission if there is a member of staff present. He's found this is the best way. At some stations he's asked to sign in (in case of emergency evacuations etc), but most not. The advantage is that once signed in, nobody else, not even BTP can remove you. He also gets clearance to use a tripod on days when it's needed.
But he doesn't ask on LU - the SAs always look too busy or are not bothered.......

A constant theme running through these posts is the lack of common sense and the lack of discretion by certain staff who take offence to people photographing trains/stations. Are they ill informed or just saddo jobsworths with nothing better to do than harass people who in general, know a fair amount more about the system than the average punter, and therefore should be welcomed onto the station as an extra pair of eyes/ears if anything suspicious occurs, and can then act accordingly.

I think that there is another, deeper issue here which no-one has mentioned. I believe that the CSAs and others who try to stop photography on LU are trying to make us feel small for having a hobby that they do not understand. In fact, you could say it was a form of bullying, no doubt they get a thrill out of it. This all comes about from the oft-mentioned media portrayal of railway enthusiasts as a figure of fun or someone to be sneered at.

Quite true - the trouble comes when some of these CSAs with bad attitude go up as T/ops. BA is much more of a problem in that environment.

Firstly, you may find this link of interest.

I've never had staff come up to tell me to stop taking photographs, only by BTP cavalry. I grew up using SLRs and only used a compact for a short time in 2004-2005 when my film SLR decided to die on me. As of now I've got a Canon EOS 350D SLR that'd probably look like a 'pro' camera to somebody who doesn't know any better I guess. I think more needs to be done to bring awareness about photography Underground.

Does using an SLR mean that I am a 'professional' photographer?
NO. It shouldn't mean that, because that's a stupid sterotype. I know professional photographers who use compact cameras underground for candid photography because it stops them 'being seen'. Some people use SLRs just want more control over their photographs in terms of technicalities, and especially if you're a person like myself who is trying to keep the standard of the art form something that doesn't fall into disrepute (because believe me, there are some mavericks out there with all the kit, but don't know what to do with it...)

What consitutes 'commerical' photography? I'm not a professional photographer, but I do take more photographs than the average person as I'm trying to create a library of images for educational use (hopefully something I can hand over to London Underground in the future for their own publications) and I get a very small income from selling my photographs to collectors. I also submit to a small-time quarterly art/London magazine (which has published a few of my photographs already, one on the platform of Canary Wharf included).

I used to shoot without the permit 'back in the day' (2003-2005) because I could happily do my station sweeps without any trouble at all (the only trouble that exists are the tourists who use flash on the platforms at the same time I take a shot, resulting in lens flare all over the place), but ever since last July I've been working under the permit system, purely because it does get annoying after a while when somebody's tapping your arm when you're trying to use 1/5 of a second on a dimly lit platform or being really threatening...

It helps if you know snippets of what you're entitled to do in terms of photography, as stated in the Conditions of Carriage. I'm not saying that you should try and be some know-it-all who can quote the appropriate sections word for word, but if a member of staff starts giving me the evil eye from the moment I get my camera out, I politely ask their permission to take photographs. If they say no, then politely enquire as to why. If the reason is not valid (as in, if the reason isn't one mentioned in the Conditions of Carriage), then politely challenge the rejection by stating what you're allowed to do. Usually I've get my way in the end. Some photographers I know keep the photography related snippets from the Conditions of Carriage in their bag (along with other bits of legislation about photography in London, in general) as part of their kit. It seems to be the thing to do these days as everybody is getting so uptight about photography these days.

Keep calm. Don't flip out or get upset if you've been told directly to stop by anybody, especially if it's the BTP. Certainly do not whip out a copy of the Conditions of Carriage and start quoting from it. Not only will you look like a smart rear, you'll annoy the authorities and you'll look like an idiot when you still get a 'NO PHOTOGRAPHY, PLEASE' from them, like a photographer friend of mine once did...

You may recall the photographs I took at Borough Station a while ago. That day, the Northern Line Bank branch kind of fell over around the time I'd signed in. The SS had me wait in his office and told me I couldn't take photographs whilst the service was in suspension, so I waited. When the service was back up (reduced) and running, he escourted me to the platform, gave me a short briefing and said I could use flash (so long as there wasn't a train in the station) tripod and the like! (I've never used flash and/or a tripod Underground, but it was still a bit surprising he was so lenient)...

The rules of what you can and can't do need to be made clear for everybody, for the staff, BTP and those taking pictures. (Otherwise it'll just get messy and folks will be taking pictures of staff and publishing some sort of 'omigodwehatelondonundergroundbecausetheydon'tletustakephotographs' propaganda, like some surly young 'artists' have started doing...)

Boring rambles of an Underground photographer... somebody slap me with a wet fish.

I guess so. The Filming Office don't provide you with a 'student' permit as such, only one of those free ones that they issue to those who are using strictly handheld equipment.

Not sure I would describe staff as 'saddo jobsworths'. The theme seems to be that there have been rare times when people have been moved on when taking photographs. Yes, sometimes staff can be less than 100% with their customer care skills but that happens in all industries. In addition, you never know the full facts. Perhaps staff can sometimes be 'over-protective' but perhaps sometimes they have genuine concerns.
I certainly wouldn't welcome enthusiasts as additional eyes and ears either. If you are staff you are trained to the standard of your grade and other staff can therefore rely on you to carry out your reponsibilities. You have no way of quantifying who an enthusiast is, what there knowledge is, and what they are capable of doing or not doing. A customer is a customer and should be treated the same regardless of their hobbies.

No (in general) and Yes (in particular) - or should that be in reverse?

A few months ago my son was at the country end of Euston station and saw some yoofs on the bridge beyond leaning over and graffiti'ing it. One call to BTP (the number's in his phone) and 5 mins later up rolls the law and carts them off. They even bothered to come down the platform 30 mins later to thank him.

So while I agree staff should not depend on enthusiasts to be their eyes and ears, they'd be stupid to ignore help if it's offered. Enthusiasts with railway knowledge (especially those with PTS or equivalent) can spot things that station staff will never spot because they're just too busy going about their designated duties.