"Incident" created after taking a photograph

It's probably worth my posting a warning in this thread. I've just been detained by the BTP for taking a photograph of a station (the front). Under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 this is a prohibited activity (as is, I was informed, photography of any critical national asset) without the permission of the property owner.

My details were taken and checked, and I was told that a report will be sent to Special Branch, who would give me a home visit if the computer check found anything suspicious (it didn't - phew).

The police were very friendly about the whole thing, and gave the impression that they didn't believe that I was up to no good, but that the law obliged them to check.

Anyhow - let this be a warning. You need written permission from LUL/Network Rail to photograph any part of the railway.

The part relating to the powers is Section 45:



My camera was the article that was used (I could have been doing reconnaisance for a terrorist act). Subsection (b) means that they can stop you for no reason at all (in effect).

Yes - I could have challenged it. I worked on the principle that I have no criminal record, was not committing a criminal offence, and didn't want to spend my afternoon at Wembley Park BTP station. Remember, the recent Acts relating to Terrorism and investigation (e.g. RIPA) are some of the most severe legislation in the western world...

And just because LU, NR, etc., don't mind photos being taken doesn't mean that the Police do. But if you have a permit/pass/letter of permission then the Police know that you have a 'reason' for doing it.

Whether it's right or not, this can and does happen. I wanted to let people know so that they aren't taken by surprise (like me!)

You don't need written permission to photograph the railway!

I know the Police love to throw their weight around and play Big Brother - but there is no rule saying "You must have written permission to take photos". Yes, if you're going to hang around it's a good idea to make yourself known to the stationmaster, but there's no law against taking photographs. It's stupid - terrorists would NOT go around with a great big camera, they'd have some tiny embedded device or use a cameraphone (which I've not heard anyone be arrested for using).

I agree with A Good Cuppa .

To reply to Tomcakes, I agree - written permission isn't required. However, the situation is that the BTP have been granted the powers to stop and search without the need to suspect anything. They have been told that terrorists might take photos in order to plan attacks. If I had authorization from LU to take photos then it would be unlikely that I was a terrorist. I had no such authorization, therefore they decided to stop me for questioning. They checked me on the computer, I came up clear, and they decided not to perform a detailed search (other than looking at the photos I'd taken, as well as the ones of my Christmas lunch!).

I find it troubling that we live in a 'democracy', and yet our esteemed members of parliament allow such legislation to be passed...

I AM NOT A LAWYER

If you were taking photographs of the outside of a station than it would be reasonable to assume that you were not standing on railway property. As such the BTP technically have no jurisdiction at all. They think they do, and whether you would wish to challenge them on this is perhaps another matter. They do also have jurisdiction over anything "that may be prejudicial to the railway", but have to be able to justify such situations.

Many laws are extremely vague, and may at first glance allow pretty much anything. It is expected that they will be applied in a sensible manner. In such cases it is left to judges to make a ruling. They tend to have their heads screwed on properly, and are not afraid to tell the police that are making fools of themselves. Once there is a legal precedent it becomes almost like a law and clarifies the situation for everybody. It is almost a pity that they haven't tried to charge anyone for taking pictures of trains. The probability of it being thrown out in seconds by the magistrate is high, and the police would then have a definite ruling to work on. Not that we will ever know, but I expect that Special Branch (who know what they really should be looking for) tossed the report on you into the nearest bin.

Even taking what the existing laws may or may not say, it would seem likely that the photography provisions in the conditions of carriage amount to written permission. It's not that hard to get an actual permit, but I doubt that the staff at 55 Broadway have the time to vet applications to make sure that all applicants are pure of heart and mind.

As we seem to have moved onto the BTP, I myself have been challenged by the BTP, while at Kings Cross... The officer in question, was probably 'worried' about my Cyberdog attire, Upon having stopped me, he mentioned Section 44 and 45, but then said he doesn't believe me to be carrying anything I shouldnae be carrying... Then why stop me I asked? A long drawn out Q&A session followed, with added hints of sarcasm... in all, this busybody of a BTP officer consumed time of 25 minutes, which i lost on meeting up with a friend, whom I just so happened to be heading for! I dunno!

Compsci et al

I spoke to my father about this (now retired Met Police officer with 28 years service) and he has advised that the BTP have police powers up to approx. 1 mile distance from any railway property/building.

He also suggested that given the current security thread level is deemed to be severe (see link below) and that fact the the Met Police Commissioner recently talked about the likelihood of a Christmas attack my father was not surprised (we will all have our personal opinions how Governments can manipulate the laws that are enforced by making a population feel that they are threatened)
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/current-threat-level/

I have to say that I was shocked that something so non descript as taking a photo of a station (although the location might have had something to do with it - being Wembley) could result in anyone being detained. IMHO you dealt with it correctly (not challenging at the time) - although abe would be perfectly correct and within his rights to challenge the actions taken by the BTP from his comments they do not seem to have been aggressive in their enquirers

The one observation that I have to make though is that by pure definition of taking a photo of a "critical national asset" means that the day of taking photos of landmarks such as the Houses of Parliament, Buckingham Palace etc etc are over!

The only other comment I would make would be to advise that members should make themselves known to the station supervisor before taking photos

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Great Britain is becoming a very un-free country?

Thank God, I'm now living in Auz!

And I'm fully with this 'ere gentleman!

You'd probably have to go quite some way to be more than a mile from railway property (especially if land still owned by BRB is included), especially in London. This does raise the point that many people forget regarding terrorism laws etc that just because the police are allowed to do something does not mean that they can or should without a very good reason.

Another example that none of you have never heard of is that the Proctors and Constables of the University of Cambridge have all the powers of police within 3 (or maybe 5) miles of Great St Mary's church (the official centre of Cambridge), irrespective of whether someone is a member of the University This does not however mean that they can be seen perusing speeding motorists along the M11 on bicycles or evicting chavs from Wetherspoons (Don't try being a TV license inspector entering a college without permission though). In reality the most likely cause for them arresting someone is I'm told if they are involved in meetings which get out of control, rowdy partys or disrupt lectures or exams. They are quite happy to leave everything else to the local police. Besides, their uniform of mortar board or top hat and tails isn't very practical.

The intent of all the terrorism legislation was to avoid a situation where the police are aware that someone is doing something that is clearly suspicious, but not being able to do anything about it. The blank cheque as it were is intended to prevent something catastrophic happening. Unfortunately it is being abused, either with some police officers reading the cans and mays as musts, being too keen or cautious or just using them as an excuse to do something because they are bored. If this is the case then those involved should be brought to account, and hence a complaint is in order.

The printout that I was given on the spot after being stopped includes the name and number of the officer. I am just weighing up whether to write to the BTP to ask them for clarification on their current policy. I have been taking photos of the Underground for many years, and barring an obnoxious supervisor a few years back, this is the first problem I have ever had. I would very much like to know if I, and other photographers, are going to be harassed going forward, or if this was a one-off because Boxing Day was otherwise rather dull for those concerned.

I'd have thought that the company responsible for the management of the station would be in a better position to issue such a letter/other authorisation. For example TfL press office issue something along these lines. I can't remember the details, but I know that Anne (v3.1) has posted details of this previously (alas my knowledge of old threads is not good enough to find it to link to it). This page has been linked to before and provides a good summary.

Sorry, but isn't this a case of having to prove you're innocent, a total reversal of English law? I hear all that's been said above, and suspect the action in reply #31 was for the officers to prove to their superiors they'd done SOMETHING in a whole day's shift: but if this was an 'ordinary day' my thought (unspoken or not) would be 'haven't you got something better to do?'. And in the latter situation I would take it further (probably initially to my MP). Most MPs are very strong on civil liberties, especially labour back-benchers (and tories and l-ds of course..).

Had my first photography "incident" on Friday. I was in full uniform waiting to pick up my train at Earl's Court when a C stock arrived on platform 3, this is relatively unusual as it means it must have originated from the city rather than Edgware Road branch. I dashed over to platform 2 to get a few better shots. I was then approached by a member of station staff who wanted to know if i'd signed in with the station supervisor !!! I sort of laughed at him in a "are you mad" sort of way, and gesturing at the uniform remarked "I'm a driver mate, I don't need to sign in anywhere" He then appologised and said he thought I was press I was still bemused and tapped the roundel on my parka coat with large grin said " in this !"
He was actually quiet nice, if unbeliveably officious, which was a shame, as I was all set to quote the Working Reference Manual to him ... in fact it'd have been better if he'd asked me to leave the station ...I'd like to have seen that explained away when my train arrived behind the C stock if it then had no driver !!! LOL ;D