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Post by q8 on Sept 7, 2005 18:49:31 GMT
I still think it would be preferable( and profitable) to connect the ELL to the northern electrics at Moorgate with internediate stations at Shoreditch and Liverpool Street. The Shoreditch one could just possibly be with cross platform interchange to the Central line.
This Dalston proposal is rubbish. If you are going to spend money make the outcome worthwhile. The join-up with the northern electrics would also give another north south cross river route too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2005 18:54:00 GMT
Dalston is the one stopping at Hoxton & Haggerston etc isn't it?
Sam
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Post by Phil on Sept 7, 2005 18:55:46 GMT
But have you asked the question 'Will it get people to the Olympics quicker?' If it won't then it's a non-starter, however sensible
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Post by russe on Sept 7, 2005 19:37:11 GMT
Sam - the route and its station are given on www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-route-map.shtmlPhil - admittedly the ELL extension is a pre-Olympics idea, but I'm sure phase one has been given the green light, and construction work is already well in hand. It was never intended to service the Stratford area. I really don't know how the Dalston Junction to Highbury section is going to cope though, the line is busy enough already. Btw, notices have now been issued for the formal closure of the Silverlink line from Stratford Low Level to Woolwich (with the running of the Silverlink North London line trains being proposed from the old Lea Valley platforms at Stratford - oh dear, they might have to reinstate some of the turnouts they removed a few years back!), the take over of the line by the DLR, and the re-opening in its DLR re-incarnation. The maps being displayed show a new DLR station at Stratford International, but it is not known whether they will use the existing trackbed or forge an entirely new one - it will be impossible for the DLR to traverse Channelsea South Junction. Arguably, it is sensible for the DLR to go further north as well, with stops at Olympic Stadium, and from then on, who knows, all stops to Tottenham Hale?  The DLR has very imperialistic intentions these days, and I understand Virgin also has its beady eyes on Stratford International traffic. S'all changin' round these parts, y'know! Russ P.S. Q8 - there's no chance of anything more getting into or near Liverpool Street - it's totally chokka. |
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Post by q8 on Sept 7, 2005 19:43:55 GMT
You misunderstand me Russ. The ELL station at Liverpool Street would be it's own platforms underground. Al la Moorgate.
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Post by russe on Sept 7, 2005 20:30:46 GMT
I think I'll stick to my original sentiment Q8 - 'underground' at Liverpool Street is just as chokka as overground, and I can't imagine you were suggesting a new raft of mixed 3- and 4-rail flat junctions somewhere between Aldgate East and Moorgate. Mr Citysig might not approve! As a track fan, I'd be delighted to see a proposed new plan of works, though, since the possibilities for wrong stick running would be endless and fascinating.  Russ |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 7, 2005 22:00:32 GMT
My understanding of his proposal was to provide a cross-platfom interchange with the Central line - i.e. at deep tube level. To me this implies that he wont be adding any (flat) junctions - tunneling under the aldgate area.
Chris
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Post by q8 on Sept 8, 2005 2:05:42 GMT
Correct Mr C(A) I think the ELL should burrow DOWN at the point just north of Whitechapel where the cut is and the loop round to a cross platform interchange with the Central in the Shoreditch vicinity. Then on and below the Central to Liverpool Street and finally to link up end on with the northern electric tunnels at Moorgate.
This would still give a connection to Highbury and Islington at lower level and also see trains running from the northern suburbs to the southern ones. The only drawback I can see at present is the length of the platforms at Wapping/Rotherhithe/Canada Water but the longer trains could non-stop those.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 16:46:10 GMT
The only drawback I can see at present is the length of the platforms at Wapping/Rotherhithe/Canada Water but the longer trains could non-stop those. IRC Canada Water has long platforms. And Wapping and Rotherhithe may be closed when the extension opens. |
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Post by q8 on Sept 8, 2005 17:24:50 GMT
Oh the 'Hay clarce' folk now reisdent in the former warehouses at Wapping won't like their station closed. will they?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 17:25:01 GMT
Phil - admittedly the ELL extension is a pre-Olympics idea, but I'm sure phase one has been given the green light, and construction work is already well in hand. It was never intended to service the Stratford area. I really don't know how the Dalston Junction to Highbury section is going to cope though, the line is busy enough already. Four-tracking - when Broad Street was open, a four-track route ran from Broad Street station, via Hoxton and Haggerston, to Dalston Junction, where the Lea Valley, Poplar and NorthWoolwich routes split off. Turning left, the four-tracking continued to Highbury & Islington, where more junctions were made with the GNR mainline, etc., and where the route reduced to two tracks. ELLX Phase Two intends to restore the four-tracking to Highbury & Islington, with the northern pair carrying freight, NLL services and so on, and the southern pair dedicated to the ELLX. Btw, notices have now been issued for the formal closure of the Silverlink line from Stratford Low Level to Woolwich (with the running of the Silverlink North London line trains being proposed from the old Lea Valley platforms at Stratford - oh dear, they might have to reinstate some of the turnouts they removed a few years back!), the take over of the line by the DLR, and the re-opening in its DLR re-incarnation. The maps being displayed show a new DLR station at Stratford International, but it is not known whether they will use the existing trackbed or forge an entirely new one - it will be impossible for the DLR to traverse Channelsea South Junction. Arguably, it is sensible for the DLR to go further north as well, with stops at Olympic Stadium, and from then on, who knows, all stops to Tottenham Hale? It's possible, but highly dependent on traffic levels - the line itself could probably cope with a service from Tottenham Hale to Woolwich Arsenal and Beckton via Canning Town, with changes possible at Stratford and Canning Town for DLR and LU services, but I suppose it would depend on whether or not it would be useful. The DLR has very imperialistic intentions these days, and I understand Virgin also has its beady eyes on Stratford International traffic. Heh, I'd like to see Bendylinos negotiating the NLL in its current state!  The only drawback I can see at present is the length of the platforms at Wapping/Rotherhithe/Canada Water but the longer trains could non-stop those. IRC Canada Water has long platforms. And Wapping and Rotherhithe may be closed when the extension opens. Canada Water has four-car platforms that cannot be expanded because the station is on a gradient. Wapping and Rotherhithe might remain open depending on whether or not New Cross retains a four-car service, at least IMO. |
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Post by olympic747 on Nov 9, 2005 8:10:32 GMT
To me ELLX is becoming too political, and its confused proliferation of minor branches shows the conflicting political demands from local authorities.
Is it really feasible, in addition to the main Dalston and Croydon branches, to also run services to New Cross (only a short distance from New Cross Gate) and Crystal Palace? Crystal Palace is more useful i suppose, but these two minor branches will detract from service the main trunk routes. To keep New Cross on does seem fairly pointless.
Also what's the betting ELLX Phase Two to Clapham is in transport terms the Second Coming - some day never?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2005 9:52:10 GMT
But as I said earlier, you _need_ New Cross to remain available - not just because of the depot (which may or may not remain in use), but because New Cross can only take four-car trains, a length that just happens to be equal to the length of Wapping and Rotherhithe platforms!
IMO keeping New Cross and running four-car trains from there to Dalston Junction would be useful, as it allows Wapping and Rotherhithe to remain served and also provides a secondary route if the main routes from the Southern Region get blocked.
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Post by q8 on Nov 9, 2005 10:19:40 GMT
TOK just a minor correction. Wapping and Rotherhithe can accomodate a 5 car train of 'C' stock dimensions. They had 5 cars 'COP's running down there in the 70's. [Still say that the northern extension is a waste of time and effort. The connection to the Northern electrics at Moorgate would generate far more traffic]
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2005 11:27:03 GMT
TOK just a minor correction. Wapping and Rotherhithe can accomodate a 5 car train of 'C' stock dimensions. They had 5 cars 'COP's running down there in the 70's. [Still say that the northern extension is a waste of time and effort. The connection to the Northern electrics at Moorgate would generate far more traffic] Thanks for the info Q8. Still though, considering that the most likely rolling stock to be used on the ELLX are the 4JOPs on the Windsor lines, which are themselves probably as long as a 4-car A stock (or longer!), I still think that retaining New Cross for services at Wapping and Rotherhithe is a smart move. |
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Post by olympic747 on Nov 9, 2005 11:54:38 GMT
But why do Wapping and Rotherhithe need New Cross as a terminus? New Cross Gate bound trains use them, so what difference does it make if NX closes?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2005 16:01:38 GMT
Because trains won't be terminating at New Cross Gate anymore - they'll be running onto the Southern Region, and will be too long to call at the stations on either side of Brunel's tunnel. New Cross, however, will remain a terminus.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 9, 2005 17:21:11 GMT
I read a bit about the ELLX on the TfL site earlier today which said that all the trains would be 4-car units and all branches would get a 4tph service, meaning 12tph on the central section.
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Post by olympic747 on Nov 10, 2005 12:15:08 GMT
Sorry to sound dense here, but i'm still confused about the reasons for keeping NX. Is it necessary because of the depot? In which case you still don't necessarily need the station; just terminate at Surrey Quays and run into NX (NX becomes a kind of Northumberland Park).
Back to my TfL fantasy land; if the fictional Clapham branch is ever built there is scope to build a sidings at Clapham High Street - where a coal train depot existed until the Swinging Sixties. There are also enough crossovers to provide where necessary short-working Clapham High Street services that could run to the opposite platform also for round turning.
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Post by russe on Nov 12, 2005 1:47:19 GMT
Relations between Network Rail and tfl seem to have been somewhat strained recently over the future arrangements at Stratford. The previous notices of proposals outlining tfl's vision of the DLR takeover of the NLL line south of Stratford, as attached to a few lamp-posts on affected stations, have now suddenly disappeared, and have been replaced by revised posters, from which one can deduce that Network Rail has told tfl to stuff its assumptions regarding Silverlink traffic where the sun don't shine. The revised proposals, in a rather peculiar phrasing, are that the line south of Stratford will now close to NLL traffic "no sooner than 1 Nov 2006."
As for poor Silverlink, caught in the middle of the present muddle, we learn that it will now have platforms "to be provided by the DLR". Unfortunately, the revised proposals are unable to tell the bewildered travelling public where these new platforms are to be located. Cynics are already suggesting that they might not even be near Stratford station...
Joined up Government? Oh dear me no.
Russ
(confidently predicting a glorious transport fiasco for the awful 2012 Olympics)
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Post by Ben on Jun 12, 2006 18:20:33 GMT
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd use this one instead. Is there any information yet available on the track diagrams for the extension. Also, some time ago I came across a network rail document that had the lengths of all the platforms in this country on it. When I find it again I'll post the link, but does LUL have a similar document for its platforms?
Many thanks
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