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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 10, 2007 13:24:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2007 17:27:52 GMT
Mmmm.....does seem odd, I thought these days T/Ops who multi spadded were put on the stations and could re - apply for driver at one point, as opposed to being sacked.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 10, 2007 18:02:52 GMT
I believe [my Trains colleagues could help me here] you are sent to the station side, if you have a number of spads within a given time period, or if [one example] an aggravated spad has occurred.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2007 18:04:08 GMT
Yep, true you do get dipped in grade...
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jan 10, 2007 22:58:18 GMT
Well, that may be the general result but it is not a foregone conclusion. Once a driver has had a set number of SPAD's within a defined period, they would be referred to a case conference. The case conference is held and it is then decided what course of action is most suitable.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 10, 2007 23:19:23 GMT
Is this the one that was speeding, then overshot the platform and hence spadded?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 11:42:14 GMT
Well, that may be the general result but it is not a foregone conclusion. Once a driver has had a set number of SPAD's within a defined period, they would be referred to a case conference. The case conference is held and it is then decided what course of action is most suitable. While this is in no doubt true, the drivers I've spoken to have said that the loss of grade is more likely on the Northern than other lines. On a +ve note, ATO starts later this year, so non ATO spads will reduce hugely.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jan 11, 2007 21:32:13 GMT
I can't think of an occasion where a driver has gone to case conference and remained driving, but it could happen! I'm sure it has happened somewhere on the system too. Ultimately you must treat each case on it's own individual merits. It may be a long standing driver who has a perfect previous record and then all of a sudden has a number of SPAD's in a short space of time. This would lead you to believe that there must be some kind of external (non-work related possibly) problem that has led to this situation. In that kind of instance it may not be appropriate to 'reduce' a driver. On the other hand, it may be a relatively new driver, in which case you would check their training records rigorously to ensure the system hasn't failed them in some way. You could then recommend more training as an alternative to taking away their 'ticket'.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 11, 2007 21:42:56 GMT
The 3 years I was on the Northern, I heard/met a lot of T/ops who were demoted.
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Post by Oracle on Jan 11, 2007 22:14:13 GMT
Can you get back in or is it terminal to your career?
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 11, 2007 22:18:24 GMT
Depends Oracle on what the offence was, some are re-trained. Some are sent to the stations for a year, then re-trained. An sa who got T/op, then spadded 4 times in his first 18 months, was told he would be sent back to the station side, and then would have to re-apply.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 22:30:44 GMT
I can't think of an occasion where a driver has gone to case conference and remained driving, but it could happen! I'm sure it has happened somewhere on the system too. Ultimately you must treat each case on it's own individual merits. It may be a long standing driver who has a perfect previous record and then all of a sudden has a number of SPAD's in a short space of time. This would lead you to believe that there must be some kind of external (non-work related possibly) problem that has led to this situation. In that kind of instance it may not be appropriate to 'reduce' a driver. On the other hand, it may be a relatively new driver, in which case you would check their training records rigorously to ensure the system hasn't failed them in some way. You could then recommend more training as an alternative to taking away their 'ticket'. What you've described is probably the main problem. The drivers on the Northern Line feel they're being unfairly treated. The fact may be different, but the fact that quite a few drivers have gone through the process then creates a possible artificial problem. What LU would need to do, is communicate that the SPAD policy is being universally managed. It is unfair that a driver on the Northern Line may lose their grade, but a driver on another line who does a similar thing retains theirs.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jan 11, 2007 23:03:47 GMT
Yes, your quite right and it's something I have never really considered before. I have always thought of the policy as fair because it treats each case individually, but a driver could consider the policy unfair for exactly the same reason! It is a difficult one for LU to manage because not only must each case be treated on it's own merits, it must also be kept confidential. Ultimately, staff must take it on trust that the policy is operated equally and fairly based on circumstances. Unfortunately there isn't too much trust in LU or it's policies from staff at the moment. If I had gone through a case conference and lost my license, on the face of it I would accept that it was my own operational short comings that had led me to that point. If I then subsequently heard that another person had gone to case conference and kept their job, I would be mightily annoyed. It's a difficult one alright!
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Post by Chris M on Jan 11, 2007 23:24:31 GMT
How often does a case conference happen on average? I understand that exact numbers would most likely be confidential, but is it one or two a year? one every month or so?
Also, I would assume that the number of case conferences per line would be roughly proportional to the number of drivers on the line (i.e. there will be more involving Northern Line drivers than East London Line drivers as there are more Northern Line drivers)? Although proportional this quite likely won't be immediately obvious and the higher numbers might give the impression of unfair treatment.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 12, 2007 7:25:39 GMT
Because of the present line based management structure, there are bound to be differences between how cases are treated. Even the rolling stock instructions are differently presented for each line. I assume there is still a centrally managed appeals structure?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2007 18:43:33 GMT
Yes, your quite right and it's something I have never really considered before. I have always thought of the policy as fair because it treats each case individually, but a driver could consider the policy unfair for exactly the same reason! It is a difficult one for LU to manage because not only must each case be treated on it's own merits, it must also be kept confidential. Ultimately, staff must take it on trust that the policy is operated equally and fairly based on circumstances. Unfortunately there isn't too much trust in LU or it's policies from staff at the moment. If I had gone through a case conference and lost my license, on the face of it I would accept that it was my own operational short comings that had led me to that point. If I then subsequently heard that another person had gone to case conference and kept their job, I would be mightily annoyed. It's a difficult one alright! It's quite funny, you make a system fairer by considering the individual, that makes it unfair as everyone isn't treated the same. Something similar happens with recruitment (We've discussed before), the current system is seen as unfair as it doesn't treat people like individuals, and it treats everyone universally. It'll be interesting to see if the 'new' recruitment procedure is any better! I wonder how LU will re-build the trust of it's staff in it's policies and procedures?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jan 12, 2007 20:36:01 GMT
How often does a case conference happen on average? I understand that exact numbers would most likely be confidential, but is it one or two a year? one every month or so? It really does vary according to line and depot, as a rough guide I would imagine a large depot could expect 2 or 3 a year. Whilst SPAD's are reasonably common, an individual driver would generally have one and then not have another for some time. As I said though, it really does vary. Also, I would assume that the number of case conferences per line would be roughly proportional to the number of drivers on the line (i.e. there will be more involving Northern Line drivers than East London Line drivers as there are more Northern Line drivers)? Although proportional this quite likely won't be immediately obvious and the higher numbers might give the impression of unfair treatment. Your right in a way, a busy line with a frequent service and higher numbers of drivers will naturally register more SPAD's. This may not reflect in the number of case conferences though. The East London line (to use your example) may have three case conferences in a 12 month period, but Golders Green may have none. This is because case conferences occur when individuals have a number of SPAD's. Every driver at Golders Green could have one SPAD each in the same 12 month period but the depot will show no case conferences at all!
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Post by prjb on Jan 12, 2007 20:44:35 GMT
Because of the present line based management structure, there are bound to be differences between how cases are treated. Even the rolling stock instructions are differently presented for each line. I assume there is still a centrally managed appeals structure? The policy is the same for the entire combine, but it is applied differently because you must ensure you take into account each individuals circumstances. An appeal of this nature would still be heard at a line level. The whole structure has changed in the last few years, primarily due to Employment Tribunal (ET's) hearings that have not gone the companies way! Out go 12 month oral cautions confirmed in writing and Disciplinary Boards (DB's to you and me!). In come Local Disciplinary Interviews (LDI's) and Company Disciplinary Interviews (CDI's). It's a whole new world!!
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Post by prjb on Jan 12, 2007 20:50:09 GMT
I wonder how LU will re-build the trust of it's staff in it's policies and procedures? It must simplify them IMHO. Currently the policies are very in depth and confusing (for managers and staff). Most companies have a short discipline policy, LU's policy has an Old and New testament! ;D
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