towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 30, 2005 1:49:08 GMT
When did the City branch of the Northern become the Bank branch?Up until the 70's it was always referred to as the City branch and I believe the signs at Euston still say Northern Line via City.
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Post by q8 on Oct 30, 2005 7:21:02 GMT
When did the City branch of the Northern become the Bank branch?Up until the 70's it was always referred to as the City branch and I believe the signs at Euston still say Northern Line via City. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep and the other branch was always referred to as 'Via West end'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 12:47:00 GMT
Yeah I'd actually wondered that too, but you can see why they changed it. Any non-local punters could get confused trying to work out which one is the City and West End as opposed to Bank and Charing Cross.
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Post by trainopd78 on Oct 30, 2005 17:51:49 GMT
When I worked at Kennington in 1998, there was an item in the traffic circular advising us to use the terms via Bank and Charing +. Whether that was the instigation or just a reminder I cant be sure for certain. It's a basis to start from though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 17:59:57 GMT
There are certainly still signs around saying City branch, but not sure where. Mind you, there are signs that still include Aldwych and Ongar!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 19:35:54 GMT
Signs are at Euston which still say City Branch. Theres also a sign at Bond Street which still has the Ongar branch visible, and it includes BLAKE HALL!!!
Charing Cross Northern Line platforms still have a sign which points to the Jubilee Line; the little bit of sticky tape what was stuck over Jubille had peeled off.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 21:11:09 GMT
This is strange, because my recollection is that when I was using Finchley Central (1955-1962), the platform indicators said "VIA CHARING +" and "VIA BANK".
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Post by Tubeboy on May 18, 2006 19:42:33 GMT
When on platform duty, I sometimes refer to the branches as city and west end instead of Charing Cross and Bank. No one asks me whether a bank train is a city train or vice versa. I think city and west end are more accurate. Have had no complaints from customers either.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2006 20:01:37 GMT
I confess to getting confused by this a while back. Coz even the West End is technically part of the City, by virtue of being part of Central London. It takes a while to click that City refers to the business district of Bank, but I think it would be a bit confusing for newcomers.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2006 8:36:53 GMT
Er, no. The West End is not part of the City of London.
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Post by CSLR on May 19, 2006 10:35:50 GMT
Let us clarify what we are talking about here. Greater London is an administrative area that is quite correctly referred to as a city. That area is actually formed from two cities (the City of London and the City of Westminster) and 31 boroughs. Because the real City of London is rather strange little area of around one square mile (administered by the Corporation of London and presided over by its own Lord Mayor*), it is technically incorrect to give the same name to Greater London; but that is what most people do. The term 'Greater London' does not make it clear that we are supposedly referring to a city area. The term 'City of Greater London' is clumsy and is never used and 'London City' sounds strange. There are places where you will sometimes see the term 'Corporation of London' or even 'Corporation of the City of London' to refer to the real City of London, but it has never caught on with the public verbally. Londoners know that when they talk about the 'City of London' or 'The City', they are referring to the very small City of London administrative area. When they speak about Greater London they use the term 'London' and assume that people already know that it is a city. I will give you a moment to absorb that before you consider the next point that relates to Northern Line route indicators.
* This, of course, is a different person to the Mayor of London who is responsible for overseeing the administration of Greater London.
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Post by CSLR on May 19, 2006 10:36:59 GMT
Now, consider this. The Northern Line runs for a longer distance through the City of Westminster than it does through the City of London. Embankment, Charing Cross, Leicester Square and Tottenham Court Road stations are all in the City of Westminster. So, when you refer to a train as going via City, which City are you talking about?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 20, 2006 2:03:17 GMT
Which is why it's a heck of a lot easier to pick a station on each branch, and name the branch after said station..............
Or do some people find that too simple? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2006 8:07:51 GMT
Which is why it's a heck of a lot easier to pick a station on each branch, and name the branch after said station.............. D ;D ;D Easy ain't it??? But, as always, theres always a select few that choose to do it the hard way....
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Post by CSLR on May 20, 2006 10:56:38 GMT
Which is why it's a heck of a lot easier to pick a station on each branch, and name the branch after said station.............. Which takes us neatly back to the original question - When did the City branch become the Bank branch? I think that the answer to this lies in part with the experimental 1935 stock trains. You may be aware that the design allowed for the display of only one destination plate. This was not a problem on the Piccadilly Line, but it was unsuitable for the Northern Line where it was necessary to provide a route indication. A single enamel plate survived, which is presumed to have come from this stock and is divided into two. The top half is black with white lettering and shows the destination, while the bottom half is black on yellow and shows the route as 'VIA HIGHGATE & CITY' or 'VIA HIGHGATE & WEST END'. It therefore appears that City and West End were the preferred terms at that time (c1935). From the experience gained with the 1935 stock trials, it was decided that any 1938 stock used on the Northern Line would need space to display at least two destination plates - one for the actual destination and one for the route. This was supplemented by a third space for a plate which gave the name of the line (in the case of the Northern, this was black lettering on a white background). A destination plate setup for the Northern Line would therefore usually be*:- Top - 'Northern Line' plate in enamel lettering. Middle - Destination in enamel lettering. Bottom - Route indication, but not in enamel lettering! Anyone who worked on the Northern Line or inspected these plates will recall that while there were full sets of plates for all of the Northern Heights destinations in every leading cab, there were no enamel plates for the route indicator. The route 'VIA BANK' or 'VIA CHARING X' was in the form of transfers placed onto blank yellow enamel plates or paper stickers (later plastic self-adhesive labels) placed onto any spare enamel plate that was available. This would suggest that the original batch of two double sided plates with a route indicator of 'VIA HIGHGATE & CITY (or BANK?)' plus the other three route options, had probably not been ordered/delivered/put into use, as they would not have been required until the Northern Heights project was completed. As the northern extensions were never finished or opened, 1938 stock ran around with these 'temporary' route indication plates from their introduction right through to their withdrawn from service. I suggest that there is some evidence that the term 'VIA CITY' and 'VIA WEST END' was in use in 1935 and that this was changed on the train destination plates with the introduction of 1938 stock. This would also explain why route maps on stations vary. Any installed before c1938 will almost certainly show CITY / WEST END. Anything after that date should be BANK / CHARING CROSS - but because different LT departments were involved, the message appears to have taken many years to filter through to everyone. * An early publicity photo from 1938 (LTM Ref: 7379-DW Inv: 1998/75662) has the destination display with the Northern Line plate at the bottom. The destination plates are clearly mock-ups, but the route indicator is shown as 'VIA CHARING X'. All of the photographs that I can locate of 1938 stock on the Northern Line show 'VIA CHARING X' and 'VIA BANK'.
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Post by amershamsi on May 20, 2006 11:47:20 GMT
so west end and city lasted offically about 12 years, from the formation of the northern line in 1926 (when the two lines were linked) until 1938? It's held on for quite a while afterwards though!
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Post by CSLR on May 20, 2006 12:01:03 GMT
Yes; via Bank appears to have been the official wording on destinations displayed on the fronts of trains from 1938. Working timetables that I have seen also show 'via Bank'. However, enamel signs directing passengers to the 'City' branch were certainly still being installed on stations as late as the 1960s.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2006 20:19:09 GMT
There is a Northern line destination blind ( click here) on eBay at the moment which shows 'via Bank' and 'via Charing Cross'. Those enamel signs at Euston which say 'City Branch' look as if they date from the re-building of the CSLR station in connection with the Victoria Line.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2006 21:17:57 GMT
Why have a blind, when you can have an illuminated dstination box? you can PM me how much you're prepared to pay for it, not that i wish to sell it at present....
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2006 22:33:40 GMT
the nothern line controllers use both names when talking to the drivers ie " driver can you divert via the city please " " driver make yourself a morden bia bank "
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2006 22:34:41 GMT
There is a Northern line destination blind ( click here) on eBay at the moment which shows 'via Bank' and 'via Charing Cross'. Those enamel signs at Euston which say 'City Branch' look as if they date from the re-building of the CSLR station in connection with the Victoria Line. TUT TUT
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Post by mandgc on May 22, 2006 10:42:57 GMT
Destination on Trains.
The original C&SLR locos showed 'City' but I have looked through a number of Books showing Standard Stock trains (from 1923 and which showed two boards in their aperture), 1938 and later to 1972 stock and have, apart from a 1924 train that had One Line Destination Blind with a small 'Via Charing X' board hung outside. Other than this one I have not seen any picture of a Northern train that did not show either "Via Bank ' or' Via Charing Cross/ X' All the 1938 stock had three Boards displayed in the aperture - 'Northern Line / Destination / Via (Bank or Charing cross' The 1959 and 1972 stock had single line blinds though the Northern trains showed 'Destination ' with 'Via Bank or Charing Cross in smaller letters underneath. 'Northern Wastes' by Blake and James shows sketches of 1938 boards -
"Via Highgate and City' and 'Via Highgate and West End" 'Via Golders Green and City' and Via GG and West End' ( Both on two lines) 'Via Finsbury Park' 'Via City' ' Via West End"
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Post by mandgc on May 22, 2006 10:46:11 GMT
My Reply # 21.
I have never seen a picture of a train showing any of these City / West End Boards.
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Post by CSLR on May 22, 2006 11:06:06 GMT
Now we might be getting somewhere with these plates. The one that I have seen was presumably a trial plate used on the 1935 stock which only had one space to cover destination and route. I had assumed that two double sided plates were planned for the 1938 stock (which had a separate slot for the route), but I forgot the other three routing options mentioned by mandgc:-
'Via Highgate and City' and 'Via Highgate and West End' 'Via Golders Green and City' and 'Via GG and West End' ( Both on two lines) 'Via Finsbury Park' 'Via City' 'Via West End'
It seems that sometime after planning these, it was realised that the stock would be running before the Northern Heights extensions were open. That is when the 'temporary' route plates were introduced with the new wording.
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Post by CSLR on May 22, 2006 11:27:27 GMT
The original C&SLR locos showed 'City' The term 'City' branch almost certainly came into use as a result of the name of the railway. As mandgc says, the word 'CITY' was painted on the front face of the step just beneath the end door of the locomotives quite early in the life of the line. The locomotives, of course, always faced the same way and could not have been turned because of the offset position of the conductor rail. Intriguingly, there is no known photograph showing the other end of the locomotives at this time. We guess that it might have said 'STOCKWELL' but we do not know for certain. With the opening of the extensions, the painted signs were replaced by conventional enamel destination plates on the ends of the locomotives.
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Post by mandgc on May 23, 2006 0:25:13 GMT
I have a vague recollection of Platform Signs saying something like "To City Line/ Trains,etc" Perhaps the Sign Makers favoured " West End or City " rather than " To Trains Via Bank ( which will also take you to Angel or Borough, etc)" :-)
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Post by mandgc on May 23, 2006 23:51:04 GMT
1935Stock.
This stock, (Streamlined and the later Ongar Sets) originally had a one line *Blind* which served the Picc. Line alright. Perhaps when it was decided that the proposed new,1938, stock was to be used on the Northern Line that the 3 Plate destination box was provided. Three Blinds on the front of an STL or RT bus might be OK but would the Train Drivers stand for that ? :-)
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Post by mandgc on May 26, 2006 6:05:14 GMT
I wonder how the Northern would have coped today if all the extensions had been completed and houses filled all the Green Fields within walking distance of the new stations ?
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Post by Tomcakes on May 26, 2006 18:15:41 GMT
It seems that "city" is the term used previously and still used by staff / people "in the know". The normal commuter (and DVA etc) generally refers to "Bank" and "ChX" branches.
If people are on about splitting the Northern as it is, think what it would be like with the extensions!
Incidentally (NO RC references!!), what was the service pattern going to be? ISTR something like
Moorgate - Bushey Heath via East Finchley Moorgate - Alexandra Palace Kennington - Bushey Heath via Charing Cross and Colindale Morden - High Barnet via Bank Morden - Edgware via Bank and Colindale Morden - East Finchley via Charing Cross
being mentioned at some time? Though another idea had the Bushey Heath - Edgware section operationally isolated from the rest of the line.
Edit: I note someone on eBay selling paper station names... the ones used during station refurbrishment for for unusual destinations. They don't mention yuo can buy them for 10p apiece at Acton open days...
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Post by mrjrt on May 27, 2006 2:24:15 GMT
My understanding of the northern end was that the Edgware branch was saturated, so the Bushey Heath extension was going to run via the LNER mainline to Finchley, as that route had more capacity. Edgware was to have 4 platforms, with cross platform interchange between the inner two terminating bays from the GG branch, and the outer two being the through route to Bushey Heath. You can see here the curving built-but-unused platform 1. The maps also showed Edgware as a terminating point for the GG branch. I'm not sure how the line to platform one would have crossed the other lines though; haven't got the track plans to hand. Apparently they originally wanted the archway to link up with the ally paly branch, but the gradients were too severe, so the current setup was devised, with 4 tracks from the tunnel mouths to finchley central, where they would obviously seperate for the two branches.
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