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Post by Alight on Dec 23, 2007 13:43:27 GMT
If you go onto Wikipedia, you may have noticed it always said as follows:
Northern Line is busiest
Central Line 2nd
Piccadilly Line 3rd
District Line 4th (and busiest subsurface)
These stats are based however on passengers per year and not on smaller stretches. Therefore the Victoria Line wikipage has been edited to state that this is the busiest line with references.
When browsing I have found 2 references. One says Victoria Line
175 million over its 13.25 mile length each year.
whereas Tubeprune says 174 million over 20 km length
I wonder which one is more correct?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 20:28:04 GMT
Well, 13.25 miles is around 21km...
Hmm... National Rail have Station Usage Sheets available... I'm sure LU do too...
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Post by superteacher on Dec 23, 2007 20:57:29 GMT
Have read various stats about this over the years. Apparently, the busiest section of the underground in the morning peak is Bethnal Green - Liverpool Street on the Central.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 21:10:05 GMT
Aye, I'd agree with that... They also pile on at Stratford, probably in the belief they will get to Livvy St a few seconds before the Anglia/One TOC service they just alighted from!
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Post by suncloud on Dec 25, 2007 9:23:02 GMT
Suspect it's more about having the easy interchange to get to Bank St. Pauls etc. If heading to Liverpool Street I'll sometimes change the otherway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 14:04:06 GMT
The Victoria line has the highest number of passengers per station of all the lines.
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Post by Alight on Jan 3, 2008 18:48:52 GMT
Indeed
And additionally did ye knor that Roding Valley tube station has the lowest number of passengers per annum on the entire London Underground letalone the Central Line. This was up against Chesham on the Met, Ickenham on the Picc, Upminster Bridge on the District Line, Royal Oak on the H&C and when it came to the Vic, all the stations were highly populated and this meant Blackhorse road was least used but still will with 5.312 million passengers per annum when compared to Roding Valley which was something like 0.198.
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Post by edwin on Jan 3, 2008 21:40:05 GMT
Royal Oak!?!? It's in Zone 2!
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Post by alstom1996 on Jan 3, 2008 21:58:19 GMT
That's interesting because the Jubilee is certainly 10 times busier than it was a few years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 22:01:11 GMT
Have read various stats about this over the years. Apparently, the busiest section of the underground in the morning peak is Bethnal Green - Liverpool Street on the Central. Aye, I can imagine. I had that pleasure again this morning. Trying to get on a train at Bethnal Green, I had to let the first eleven (11!) trains pass before I could squeeze myself in one, with the aid of a little pushing, near violence, holding breath and hoping to still hold on to my bag at the next station. Obviously, all to the tune of a chirpy message repeating over and over again to the hundreds of people desperately trying to get on that there was a good service operating on the Central Line. I get the impression that as long as the control centre isn't burnt down everything will always be considered a good service. I've heard that message even when running at 30% of usual capacity so 'Good Service' can't have anything to do with the actual running of the trains. Honestly, I understand that it is hard to run a decent service in times of severe underfunding and a notoriously inefficient network layout but just don't lie that there is a good service. Everyone travelling on the Central Line more than once a week can instantly tell that it couldn't be further from the truth. Every last sympathy for TfL I have seems to vanish whenever I hear that message being abused. |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 4, 2008 10:52:36 GMT
Indeed And additionally did ye knor that Roding Valley tube station has the lowest number of passengers per annum on the entire London Underground letalone the Central Line. My guess is that a lot of people in the area travel to stations such as Woodford that have a much better service. Were platforms built for this station on the Epping branch (its only a couple of hundred metres from the junction) then I would expect the patronage to increase significantly. Royal Oak!?!? It's in Zone 2! It is however only a 17 minute walk to Paddington according to the Journey Planner. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 4, 2008 19:52:26 GMT
The Central line is one of the better performers these days - but even with 30tph, the line will always be jam packed in the peaks. It's always been the same. However, I agree with your point about "good service" being used when it clearly isn't the case. As for a time when 30% of the service is running, you wouldn't be letting just 11 trains go through! Bethnal Green westbound in the am peak is a notoriously hard place to board, simply because the train is rammed when it comes in, and hardly anyone gets out!
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Post by Oracle on Jan 4, 2008 20:00:20 GMT
I can remember the Marble Arch<>Liverpool Street 'shorts'. So do many others I know. Would they make a difference these days?
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Post by superteacher on Jan 4, 2008 20:31:51 GMT
I can remember the Marble Arch<>Liverpool Street 'shorts'. So do many others I know. Would they make a difference these days? I do, but they only operated them in the off peak. Used to be 24tph between Marble Arch and Liverpool Street. Current timetable has 24tph off peak between White City and Leytonstone, so the service is as frequent, but spread over more of the line. Only prob with those Marble Arch - Liverpool Street shorts is that detraining them could hold up the train behind - would be even worse now that guards have disappeared. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 4, 2008 21:36:23 GMT
After a quick scan of the WTT mountain I think the last WTT to have the Marble Arch - Liverpool Street reversers was WTT43, which came in in Feb 1979. The pattern with these was alternate White City/Marble Arch to/from Liverpool Street, usually with a W. Ruislip - Epping (and v.v.) inbetween for good measure. They appear to be timetabled to run with 3 minute headway between all the trains; 8.5 min allowed to reverse at Liv. St, 11.5 min at White City (via siding), and 11.5 min at White City.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 4, 2008 21:41:53 GMT
They have come and gone with various timetable changes, but the last time they ran as far as I know was back in 1990. Then, the pattern was:
Epping - West Ruislip - 6tph
Hainault - Ealing Broadway - 6tph
Leytonstone - White City - 6tph
Liverpool Street - Marble Arch - 6tph
thus giving 24tph Liverpool Street - Marble Arch. The Liverpool Street signalbox was kept very busy in those days, with a train reversing there every 5 minutes!
in 1991, the Marble Arch to Liverpool Street's were cut again, and the White City - Leytonstone became White City - Liverpool Street, thus providing 18tph WHC - LIS.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 4, 2008 22:10:02 GMT
You beat me - I was just going to correct myself! Last ones I can find were in WTT50 2/7/90 - 16/12/90. Trains would do a shortie inbetween at White City - Leytonstone shuttle, with the introduction of WTT51, reversing at Leytonstone was eliminated and reverted back to White City - Liverpool Street.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2008 2:29:46 GMT
The good thing about the Victoria is that almost every stop is a busy interchange and people do get both on and off, making it a bit easier to get on and off. I can't imagine how bad it must be at Bethnal Green! Maybe you can start double backing to Stratford or something.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2008 9:51:51 GMT
I find it impossible to believe that Royal Oak is one of the most lightly used stations on the whole of LUL. There are always people getting on and off there! Maybe the barriers are often left open so everyone evades their fare or something and it doesn't show up on the figures. But there are countless stations more lightly used.
Also out of interest, where does the drain come into all of this in the peak?
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Post by jamesb on Jan 5, 2008 11:18:20 GMT
Indeed And additionally did ye knor that Roding Valley tube station has the lowest number of passengers per annum on the entire London Underground letalone the Central Line. My guess is that a lot of people in the area travel to stations such as Woodford that have a much better service. Were platforms built for this station on the Epping branch (its only a couple of hundred metres from the junction) then I would expect the patronage to increase significantly. That's true, but would probably mean knocking down my house! Although it is still hardly used during the day, I have noticed that Roding Valley is more busy in the rush hours since it was put in zone 4; people catch specific through trains (am) or change at Woodford (pm). The number of cars parked around the station has increased to the frustration of local residents and the shops (since there are few restrictions and it's free). I would be interested to know if the most recent figures on passenger numbers reflect an increase in RV's use. Data collected about the use of RV might be outdated and not everybody touches out (or touches in). There isn't much stopping people from having a free ride from Roding Valley to Stratford and then touching in at Stratford when entering the Jubilee/DLR... Twice in my life I have been stopped by ticket inspectors at the station, and once on a train. People fare-dodging frustrates me greatly, since I always buy my ticket. |
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Post by Alight on Jan 5, 2008 12:45:07 GMT
I find it impossible to believe that Royal Oak is one of the most lightly used stations on the whole of LUL. O no don't get us wrong; it isn't the actually one of the lightest on the LUL, only on the H&C when compared to all it's other stations. Just like Blackhorse Road on the Victoria Line which still gets tonnes of passengers. The lightest stations tend to be in the "nought points" e.g. Roding Valley at 0.198 or Chigwell, Chesham, Moor Park (I think?), Grange Hill etc. |
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Post by plampin on Mar 28, 2008 22:32:05 GMT
The victoria line does serve 3 of the bussiest stations on the system however at the moment it doesnt carry the most amount of passengers. The line that carries the most is the northern line i believe which seems quite reasonable. The victoria line does appear to be very busy during the peaks but i think that may be because of the lack of space at victoria station where the platforms are dangerously thin. This probably applies to the central line aswell. Despite the fact that trains are turned back at seven sisters it still doesnt give a good enough service on the central section meaning that the trains are overcrowded. Being driven under ATO does speed things up but not really enough
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2008 23:29:00 GMT
The victoria line does serve 3 of the bussiest stations on the system however at the moment it doesnt carry the most amount of passengers. The line that carries the most is the northern line i believe which seems quite reasonable. The victoria line does appear to be very busy during the peaks but i think that may be because of the lack of space at victoria station where the platforms are dangerously thin. This probably applies to the central line aswell. Despite the fact that trains are turned back at seven sisters it still doesnt give a good enough service on the central section meaning that the trains are overcrowded. Being driven under ATO does speed things up but not really enough I think you are confusing the definitions of busiest. The Victoria Line carries the highest number of passengers, per direction, per hour at the busiest point. This is closely followed by the Central Line, and then the Northern Line. The Northern Line carries more passengers in total than any other line 206million/year, but also has one of the largest networks - 58km. The Victoria Line carries 161million/year with just a 21km network, and is thus the busiest line per km. Finally, there is most overcrowded. This is usually defined as passengers per sq m, and is taken at the busiest time, and busiest point. It is affected by the number of passengers per train, train capacity (length being an important factor), and frequency of trains. No official figures seem to be released for this. It is likely that the Victoria, Central, and Northern would be at the top of the list. I would hedge my bets that the Jubilee, Waterloo & City, would also feature quite high up on the list too. The DLR may also have pretty high overcrowding figures. By the way, and i in the middle of a sentence should be a big I ! |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 29, 2008 0:14:50 GMT
Certainly I've had to let two or three trains go past before I've been able to get on an eastbound Jubilee Line train at Canning Town and West Ham in the PM peak. The story is the same for eastbound Central Line trains at Liverpool Street, Stratford and Leytonstone where even in the shoulders of the peaks and late evening trains are often crowded.
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Post by DrOne on Mar 30, 2008 22:57:04 GMT
I'm keen to see the latest stats on the Jubilee too. It'd be even more interesting to compare increases pre and post JLEx, the addition of the 7th carriage, and what will happen when it really starts to fulfill it's potential 30tph with ATO.
It's clear that Wembley Park-Stratford is really no joke but it feels like its the the eastern section which has really exploded due to flows from connections at Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town.
Could the Jubilee's passengers per km figure eventually reach Victoria line proportions?
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Post by edwin on Mar 31, 2008 0:22:28 GMT
I doubt it, as currently the Jubilee line carries fewer passengers per year over a significantly longer route...
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Post by Ben on Mar 31, 2008 1:18:06 GMT
OT but where does the heaving mass of people on the jubilee peter out on the west end of the line. Having traveled Stratford to Finchley Road pre and post 7 car it still seems just as crowded now!
30tph with ATO is surely too low a frequency to aim for? That was run with conventional signaling in the past after all.
I read on wiki that the met is now the lowest used per mile per year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2008 9:50:28 GMT
The Jubilee's busiest section according to data available on the internet is Finchley Rd to Baker Street. This is from a few years back, but post extension. I used the line daily until late 2006, and the 7th car made no obvious difference in overcrowding.
Yes, 30tph is a pretty lame figure post ATO, especially when the line was originally planned to run 36tph. Dead end termini, and tipping out at intermediate reversing points may even make 30tph difficult to operate!
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Post by DrOne on Mar 31, 2008 17:58:48 GMT
OT but where does the heaving mass of people on the jubilee peter out on the west end of the line. From what I've seen it seems pretty busy up to Wembley Park a lot of the time. But that's purely anecdotal. The Jubilee's busiest section according to data available on the internet is Finchley Rd to Baker Street. This is from a few years back, but post extension. I used the line daily until late 2006, and the 7th car made no obvious difference in overcrowding. I wonder what are the chances the Jubilee's 'busiest section' would have changed to say London Bridge to Canary Wharf in the next round of figures? Btw, does anyone know when these might be available? Yes, 30tph is a pretty lame figure post ATO, especially when the line was originally planned to run 36tph. Dead end termini, and tipping out at intermediate reversing points may even make 30tph difficult to operate! I'm always intrigued/confused by the turnaround limits of various lines. It's often been said that (and I understand why) Brixton is a problem for the Victoria and even the 3 platform terminus at Cockfosters is an issue for Picc (while Morden seems to cope with a significantly higher tph?!) but could any line/terminus arrangement currently turn around 36tph? If not what would be the best arrangement to achieve this? |
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Post by suncloud on Apr 1, 2008 9:00:55 GMT
I think a big part of the issues at termini are about the crossovers. At most line ends (including Stratford and Brixton), either going in or coming out of the station involves the train going over the crossover and blocking the route for any other services (a conflicting move). Brixton suffers most because there is nowhere else to reverse trains short at the south end without tipping out.
Morden has greater flexibility as it's 3 roads continue towards the depot where there is also a reversing neck. A non-conflicting pattern can be acheived by reversing some trains in the centre road, and others via the depot using the outer platforms.
I'd imagine one of the best layouts for reversing a high tph at a terminus is a loop, which are more common elsewhere, but LU has it's own examples at Heathrow and Kennington.
The other way of attaining a higher central tph is to reverse trains at multiple destinations on the line rather than running them all to the end. The disadvantage of this on the the West end of the Jubilee (and elsewhere) is that trains trains have to be tipped out before going into reversing sidings beyond the station. However where a central reversing bay (Seven Sisters and White City for example) is provided this ceases to be a problem and the limiting factor is the time take to set the routes.
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