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Post by lightblueleader on Nov 16, 2007 2:29:05 GMT
So come on people, is this not the best rapid transit line in the world? 37/8 trains and only 33 plats etc, but a train every 1 and a half or 2 minutes, and it's all 60's technology and hardware (as well as half the staff! myself included)
Does any other line have the performance we have, even those with new signalling/stock?
I think it is awesome the way this line runs, and runs with such precision, and most of that is due to its staff, top notch people at all levels.
Love it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2007 22:54:29 GMT
So come on people, is this not the best rapid transit line in the world? 37/8 trains and only 33 plats etc, but a train every 1 and a half or 2 minutes, and it's all 60's technology and hardware (as well as half the staff! myself included) Does any other line have the performance we have, even those with new signalling/stock? I think it is awesome the way this line runs, and runs with such precision, and most of that is due to its staff, top notch people at all levels. Love it. I would agree that it is probably the most efficiently run line on LU. The terminus operations at Brixton are very efficient. The simple end to end nature of the line also helps with it's operations. The 60s technology runs very reliably for it's age. However the trains performance is a bit sluggish compared to modern stocks, and the signalling has a relatively low capacity compared to not so modern multiple home, and modern distance-to-go, and moving block signalling. Best rapid transit line in the world (in operational terms)? I would probably vote for the busier Moscow metro lines with trains every 95secs, as opposed to the Victoria's 126secs. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 17, 2007 2:09:04 GMT
All credit to the 60's technology, and the people who made it happen. I suspect one of the main reasons for it's success is that everyone on the line is based at the same depot - that must make a huge difference - along with staff like yourself...........your enthusiasm seems to know no bounds!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2007 7:57:34 GMT
I suspect one of the main reasons for it's success is that everyone on the line is based at the same depot - that must make a huge difference - along with staff like yourself...........your enthusiasm seems to know no bounds!! ;D ;D ;D I understand a depot is to open at Brixton. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 17, 2007 10:58:31 GMT
C'mon green line guys!!! LBL has thrown down the gauntlet and the replies so far have been....shall we say... anaemic, including from the green line t/ops themselves. Where's all the (good-natured) inter-line rivalry gone? *sits back and waits*    |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 17, 2007 14:26:06 GMT
Well of course you can't beat being out in the open (above ground) for most of the time on trains that are the right size (in height). You get to breath fresh air too whilst out in the 'open sections' unlike all that dead human skin & hair as well as brake dust that fills the tunnels on 'deep tube' lines. I'd also be bored to death sitting on a train that drives itself - I'd much rather use my skill & judgment to drive the train manually, keeping an eye on the signals all the while (I'm gonna hate it when S stock goes ATO *wheres that promotions pack?* ;D). Will that do Phil?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 17, 2007 15:34:57 GMT
I would agree that it is probably the most efficiently run line on LU. The terminus operations at Brixton are very efficient. The simple end to end nature of the line also helps with it's operations. The 60s technology runs very reliably for it's age. However the trains performance is a bit sluggish compared to modern stocks, and the signalling has a relatively low capacity compared to not so modern multiple home, and modern distance-to-go, and moving block signalling. Best rapid transit line in the world (in operational terms)? I would probably vote for the busier Moscow metro lines with trains every 95secs, as opposed to the Victoria's 126secs. AIUI as built the Victoria Line could better trains every 95 seconds but for safety reasons the service was reduced. When I began my career on Signal New Works I worked with many of those who installed the Vic Line signalling, indeed it was on the Vic that many of my signals peers began their careers. I was told that during testing of automatic trains and signalling that a train could be entering a platform as the previous one was exiting but that it was deemed unsafe to run trains so close together. As for the 1960s technology, much of that was down to the Chief Signal Engineer at the time, Mr.Dell who lived and breathed LU signalling. Apparently it is said that he bought a house that backed onto the railway and had the signal department cut a doorway from his garden to the track so that he had fast access in an emergency! I'm not sure about that but he was very much Mr. London Underground in his day. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2007 22:50:48 GMT
I understand a depot is to open at Brixton.[/quote] That's true, and that along with new trains, new signalling and a new control room will mean a LOT of changes on the Vic in the next few years. Interesting times indeed! |
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Post by lightblueleader on Nov 18, 2007 2:13:56 GMT
Well, well, I'm pleased to get such favourable comments back about the ELBLine! Green? is that the colour of envy? Of course the District is a fantastic railway, steeped in style and tradition, as are all the SSR, and my first love was the Northern!
Regarding the opening of Brixton train crew depot. That is really gonna make things hard for service control, we are developing thoughts and ideas on the way to recover the service once BX opens, but on such a small line it is hard.
Where the 60's signaling lets the Vic down is north of Seven Sisters, once DTG(R) comes in this will be corrected, although I'm still unsure of the idea of running 43(?) trains with only 33 platforms, that will be a nice challenge in a shutdown to avoid trains stalled in section!
Currently management feel that the new control set up will be 'Two Tier' whereby you have two controllers doing the signaling, and the Service Manager stepping in to deal with incidents once they have occurred. It amazes me how disposing of signalmen ends up meaning dumbing down and binning of the Line Controller role! Hopefully during development we will be able to prove this is not a viable way to go. The Bakerloo is allegedly Two Tier, but in reality the info man (who is a qualified L/C) takes over the role so why not be up front about it and cultivate the role!? A good Controller can have a massive impact on a line's performance, why dumb down and ultimately make the passenger suffer!?
Ah well that's enough of me whinging....
apologies.
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Post by c5 on Nov 18, 2007 2:18:22 GMT
Spot on there Mr "Elite" ;D Blue Line!
The Bakerloo Comand & Control set-up is how it should work, everywhere in the future under the upgrades. The Controller deals with the problem and the SM deals with fielding off the senior management! Its worked well like that for years after all!
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Post by lightblueleader on Nov 18, 2007 3:56:53 GMT
Spot on there Mr "Elite" ;D Blue Line! The Bakerloo Command & Control set-up is how it should work, everywhere in the future under the upgrades. The Controller deals with the problem and the SM deals with fielding off the senior management! Its worked well like that for years after all! I'm not convinced command & control is right. On the Bakerloo only the SM can recharge T/Current after an incident, and he's gonna be doing that on the word of a couple of 'controllers' who are far too busy dealing with their Trip Editing! Phone calls will be automatically steered to the appropriate desk apparently (nth or sth) but takes the 900 calls and NOC/BTP/FRC etc etc? As I say on the B/loo the Info man does this so does that not make a nonsense of it all? Finally, SM's generally never wanted to be controllers and are just suited to it, no disrespect to them, but it is a specialised type of job. I can see delays being longer and generally a lowering of standards if the controller becomes a glorified signalman. Horses for courses etc. Like the DMT's, some are fantastic roadmen and sit on the desk and vice versa, jack of all, master of none, I just think it's the wrong way to go, but maybe I'm just biased! LBL |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 7:15:57 GMT
AIUI as built the Victoria Line could better trains every 95 seconds but for safety reasons the service was reduced. The Victoria Line cannot possibly run trains timetabled at 95sec intervals, as the minimum headway through the crossover at Brixton is 96-97secs! You then have to add door closing time, and operating margin to the equation. |
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 18, 2007 10:41:13 GMT
AIUI as built the Victoria Line could better trains every 95 seconds but for safety reasons the service was reduced. The Victoria Line cannot possibly run trains timetabled at 95sec intervals, as the minimum headway through the crossover at Brixton is 96-97secs! You then have to add door closing time, and operating margin to the equation. The original signal design headway was 82s. This was made up of 30s dwell and 52s RORI. It was planned that this would give the timetabled headway of 120s. |
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Post by c5 on Nov 18, 2007 12:19:42 GMT
EBL, All this SDM stuff makes them "a jack of all trade and a master of none", as someone said to me! I don't like how it will probably end up working on the entire SSR though. I'm still of the opinion that there should be a controller role, that is seperate, like on the Northern say. Also I think that under the "wonderful" Service Control Review and the grading on SDM/LC to Servoce Controller Level 2, they could recharge traction current themselves, and no longer require the SM2 (DLCM)  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 12:38:45 GMT
EBL, All this SDM stuff makes them "a jack of all trade and a master of none", as someone said to me! I don't like how it will probably end up working on the entire SSR though. I'm still of the opinion that there should be a controller role, that is seperate, like on the Northern say. Also I think that under the "wonderful" Service Control Review and the grading on SDM/LC to Servoce Controller Level 2, they could recharge traction current themselves, and no longer require the SM2 (DLCM) Hear hear JTD! I chat fairly regularly to a guy who was in my controllers' class who went to Wood Lane - and he said to me "of course you have far more controller experience than me in the same space of time, because you're a controller all the time whereas I only do it 1 day in 4". Of course as an ex signal operator I know I'm perfectly capable of doing the signals function - but I want to be a line controller!!! As I am now  Why not let people do what they are good at and want to do - lots of the SO4s don't really want to do controller but if they're going to get a chance to go to the new rooms they're going to have to. As for T/C recharge, AIUI it's only the Bakerloo that operates this way, on all other lines it's the controller (or whoever is performing that function) who authorises recharge. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 22:22:01 GMT
The Victoria Line cannot possibly run trains timetabled at 95sec intervals, as the minimum headway through the crossover at Brixton is 96-97secs! You then have to add door closing time, and operating margin to the equation. The original signal design headway was 82s. This was made up of 30s dwell and 52s RORI. It was planned that this would give the timetabled headway of 120s. When you say original signal design headway - do you mean that the design was changed at all?. I have never observed a RORIT of less than 60secs on the Victoria Line. I would guess that to obtain 52secs there would have to be more block sections in the station areas (as with speed approach/multiple home signalling which on the District had theoretical RORITs of 52secs)? |
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 19, 2007 9:31:22 GMT
When you say original signal design headway - do you mean that the design was changed at all?. I have never observed a RORIT of less than 60secs on the Victoria Line. I would guess that to obtain 52secs there would have to be more block sections in the station areas (as with speed approach/multiple home signalling which on the District had theoretical RORITs of 52secs)? This was the basic design headway but it had to be adjusted for each location as necessary. Most stations on the Vic have multiple aspect home signalling using 3 or 4 "signals". |
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 19, 2007 15:00:40 GMT
The original signal design headway was 82s. This was made up of 30s dwell and 52s RORI. It was planned that this would give the timetabled headway of 120s. When you say original signal design headway - do you mean that the design was changed at all?. I have never observed a RORIT of less than 60secs on the Victoria Line. I would guess that to obtain 52secs there would have to be more block sections in the station areas (as with speed approach/multiple home signalling which on the District had theoretical RORITs of 52secs)? Former colleagues told me that during testing they had trains so close together that one train was entering the platform before the rear cab of the previous train had left it! I would say that if true that was more than a tad under 60 secs RORIT but I wasn't there so it's hearsay. I do wonder just how much knowledge of the original design remains because those that installed the signalling told me that they were carrying out modifications on modifications i.e. red inks, green inks and blue inks over the black inks. In all my years on installation I never saw blue inks and only once saw green inks. Apparently whole relay rooms were rewired from scratch during the original installation as the designs changed for whatever reason. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 20:05:54 GMT
When you say original signal design headway - do you mean that the design was changed at all?. I have never observed a RORIT of less than 60secs on the Victoria Line. I would guess that to obtain 52secs there would have to be more block sections in the station areas (as with speed approach/multiple home signalling which on the District had theoretical RORITs of 52secs)?
Former colleagues told me that during testing they had trains so close together that one train was entering the platform before the rear cab of the previous train had left it! I would say that if true that was more than a tad under 60 secs RORIT but I wasn't there so it's hearsay.I do wonder just how much knowledge of the original design remains because those that installed the signalling told me that they were carrying out modifications on modifications i.e. red inks, green inks and blue inks over the black inks. In all my years on installation I never saw blue inks and only once saw green inks. Apparently whole relay rooms were rewired from scratch during the original installation as the designs changed for whatever reason. As Vic line trains depart platforms, any following trains receive a 270 code / white aspect and start to run into the station accelerating up to 20ish mph. Should the train in front depart slowly (usually when being driven manually), the following train runs off of code and gets code tripped. The effect of this is that the 2 trains end up "sharing" the same platform( the last car of the front train and the first car of the rear train in the platform). The first time I experienced this, it scared the bejesus out of me  . You get some puzzled looks from the passengers too! ;D |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 19, 2007 22:32:49 GMT
In all my years on installation I never saw blue inks and only once saw green inks. That's nothing - wait until you get a purple ink! (For the uninitiated, the sequence runs black, red, green, blue, brown, orange, purple.). I've been involved with the production of green inks a few times and have been the Design Office rep on jobs where brown inks have been issued - thankfully on that job I took spare sets of test prints with me as we had to do another mod in the middle of the commissioning. |
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 20, 2007 1:03:16 GMT
In all my years on installation I never saw blue inks and only once saw green inks. That's nothing - wait until you get a purple ink! (For the uninitiated, the sequence runs black, red, green, blue, brown, orange, purple.). I've been involved with the production of green inks a few times and have been the Design Office rep on jobs where brown inks have been issued - thankfully on that job I took spare sets of test prints with me as we had to do another mod in the middle of the commissioning. Well I never, that's a new one on me! I've never heard of brown, orange and purple mods before. Obviously when that system was dreamt up there was plenty of mileage in it. I expect it has been around for a very long time now. I was first introduced to it 30 years ago. |
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Post by lightblueleader on Nov 21, 2007 2:07:42 GMT
Bloody hell, some of you blokes(JTD,RT,TP,SK,T) are in a different league! I think it's so good to have this sort of experience and knowledge still knocking about.
Yes, I care passionately for the controller role and don't want to see it dumbed down, it is and always has been such a safety net for all staff and I'm sure the railways will be the more dangerous without it. It is going to take a lot to convince senior management of this though, their mind is made up on two tier/dumbed down/all the eggs in the service manager basket!!
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Post by subwayrail on Nov 21, 2007 23:12:59 GMT
The first time I experienced this, it scared the bejesus out of me . You get some puzzled looks from the passengers too! ;D The first time I experienced it (Kings Cross northbound), I had some know-all so-and-so accuse me of having a SPAD because he couldn't see how two trains (mine being the following train) could be in the same platform otherwise. |
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Why not let people do what they are good at and want to do - lots of the SO4s don't really want to do controller but if they're going to get a chance to go to the new rooms they're going to have to.
. You get some puzzled looks from the passengers too! ;D
