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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 19:26:06 GMT
This is a question mainly for drivers but I suppose it could apply to station staff.
We all know the situation, sitting in a train (or driving as the case may be!) and you get a group of youths who are shouting curse words, playing loud mp3's off their mobiles and being disruptive.
At what point does it come to when the T/op takes the duty of removing them from the train?
Also, what would be the procedure? I mean there's a big safety issue approaching a group like that, especially in an empty train.
I know I personally would be very cautious approaching them.
Luke.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:04:12 GMT
There's not really a procedure as such, it relies on the driver's judgement.
Clearly no member of staff is going to intentionally put themselves in a dangerous position, so if the T/op wants them off the train then he's going to call for assistance, from the police if necessary.
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Post by trc666 on Aug 31, 2006 22:07:53 GMT
Are LUL staff allowed to forcibly remove troublemakers from trains / stations, or could this be seen as assault?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:17:17 GMT
Are LUL staff allowed to forcibly remove troublemakers from trains / stations, or could this be seen as assault? I think we'd leave that to the police. Obviously we can use force in self defence, but we hope it doesn't come to that. |
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Post by version3point1 on Aug 31, 2006 22:33:49 GMT
Or, you can take the more tactful approach, like a Jubilee Line T/Op...
"Keep the noise down folks; I've got a splitting headache."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:35:11 GMT
 Did that approach work? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:38:03 GMT
Or, you can take the more tactful approach, like a Jubilee Line T/Op... "Keep the noise down folks; I've got a splitting headache." Polite requests nearly always work. But if in doubt don't get involved until you've got some assistance. |
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 31, 2006 23:27:30 GMT
I have "Forcibly ejected" people from my station. Usually wastes of space, have to be careful though. Would only do it if I was assaulted/threatened.
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Post by c5 on Aug 31, 2006 23:33:13 GMT
If a driver requiries assistance in removing a person from a train, in a quiet station the Station Staff (Supervisor) will usually be sent and maybe able to encourage said person to leave the train and then the station.
The British Transport Police may be called to assist if the person becomes or has been threating or abusive.
In central London where there are usually more station staff, the person is often encouraged away from the train and either ejected from the station or asked to wait for the BTP.
Obviously, the decision rests with the staff out there "on the front line" as to if they attend straight away or await the BTP. As they should never be in a position to fear for their personal safety.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 1, 2006 0:54:43 GMT
In my experience 90% of people asked to leave a train and/or station will go when asked - but they'll make it hard going with plenty of verbal abuse.
LUL staff cannot physically move a person unless it's for their own safety (ie to prevent a one under) - if we did we'd be up on an assault charge. The last resort is the BTP and they are the one's that do the physical stuff. I know that some staff do 'get physical' - that is their choice, but they do risk breaking the law.
If a member of LUL staff is physically assulted, they can use 'reasonable force' to escape the situation and retreat to a place of safety.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2006 18:47:52 GMT
Station staff have their own way to get people off trains and believe me some are more physical than others. Having worked as a lone working SSMF in a previous life I can confirm that the drivers presence in assisting a removal is hugely reassuring although the supervisor is then left with the problem on their platform. In my experience groups of youths will often 'give it the large one' but will often comply. A short word from the supervisor is nearly enough to get them moving. They'll often have a bit of fun as they leave by pressing a ESP or help point button, but they won't hang around for the BTP. My personal fav technique is to stand on the platform and tell the person you want to talk to them, they often get off the train and the driver is given the right. For the tramps and down-outs who CAN be a real pain, I tend to chuck there stuff off the train and they tend to follow. Followed by the J Door key being tapped loudly on the grab rails. If that fails, rubber gloves and they're physically removed from the train. (I'm worried about their safety you see) Drunks..... The staff at termini stations have their own way of dealing with it. The only time I ever worked at West Ruislip when I had a drunk and managed to coax him off with the promise of a night bus only a 5 min walk away from the station  One request for the train staff here - PLEASE support the station staff especially if they're on their own. I can't tell you how annoying it is to deal with some I'm breaking the rules with a naughty word on a train and the driver remains in their cab. Last time that happened to me, I simply walked away and told the old man to call the BTP. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2006 19:40:11 GMT
That's a very good question Luke  As said there are no hard and fast rules ! I've encountered numerous situations where I've needed passengers removed from the train ! Vagrants, smokers and school kids I always deal with direct in the first instance. Smokers tend to stop or get off. Vagrants are more of a problem often requiring station staff assistance or police involvement. Unruly school kids...agghhh! always the Wimbledon branch !! I do not leave station staff to attend to removals alone, even once off the train I remain present unless they are happy for me to then continue with the train. Depending upon the problem, I may stand back and request immediate police attendance before involving myself. On one occasion I had youths vandalizing the train, they didn't know I'd seen them and i had them trapped on my train between stations and called for police assistance, but the Supervisor of the next station refused to deal and control decided not to get the Police and to tell me not to approach them  Instead I took the train out of service at the next stop and told the passengers why over the PA, they had words instead ! If passengers report something direct to you, there is more of a pressure to do something at once ! I had to step in between a fight at Monument on one occasion ! I had reports of erratic and disturbing behavior about a passenger and advised not to approach him by those reporting. I called for the train to be met ...but I was forced to deal after he was then reported urinating on seats, in fact he got off without hassle when i so instructed. If the problem is passengers holding doors, control are now keen for us to just tip the train out, let the passengers deal with those who caused the problem, whilst we resume service from the next stop. As a slim 9st11 weakling ! lol ! I don't cut much authority with gangs of yobs .... or even weighty dossers however once you have asked them to leave they then are trespassers in law, and claims of assault for being touched carry little real substance. Plus there are some drivers you just wouldn't argue with ! The Met police and BTP when you can get them, take no nonsense. We have C2C security at Upminster who are also fairly robust. It can cause havoc though ...one notorious dosser refused to alight from my last Vic line train at Brixton and his infested nature meant neither the supervisor nor I would touch him, the BTP were busy and the Met couldn't attend for an hour ....after an hour he got bored and got off. But engineering works were delayed by traction current being on and the service started up an hour late in the morning in consequence ! |
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 1, 2006 19:56:55 GMT
It can cause havoc though ...one notorious dosser refused to alight from my last Vic line train at Brixton and his infested nature meant neither the supervisor nor I would touch him, the BTP were busy and the Met couldn't attend for an hour ....after an hour he got bored and got off. But engineering works were delayed by traction current being on and the service started up an hour late in the morning in consequence ! One would hope that the individual's details were recorded and the (presumably) massive bill for the late start-up forwarded to him? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2006 20:06:49 GMT
Thanks for the replies everyone, it's given me a better idea of what you do.
aspect- I bet you need all that security at Upminster ;D they got army patrols there also? ;D
If I become a train driver that will be one of the downfalls of the job.
I tend to be very sympathetic unless it was a group of chavs or something.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Sept 1, 2006 20:09:56 GMT
One would hope that the individual's details were recorded and the (presumably) massive bill for the late start-up forwarded to him? It might be worth re-reading that TC, before allowing very understandable rightous indignation to cause such an outburst. What details do you suppose this guy has and what do you think he's going to use to pay the bill? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2006 20:29:56 GMT
If I become a train driver that will be one of the downfalls of the job. I tend to be very sympathetic unless it was a group of chavs or something. Don't let that put you off, in real terms serious passenger problems are rare and your really only as involved as you want to be ! Removing sleeping drunks and dossers from stabling trains is the only frequent issue and they are not usually violent just incapable of movement ! Vagrants, Drunks and School Kids are the main problems, Chav's despite their bad press may seem intimidating but are actually rarely involved in anything to concern the driver ! As for Tom's vagrant ...certainly a "man of straw" the number of delays down to him, several times a day refusing to alight from Seven Sisters reversers, daily use of the trains, stations and himself as a lavatory. His smell negating the use of most of the car he's in and the inability to actually touch him. PEA's where he's abused passengers. Passengers who think he's dead, hence the smell. He was known to all parts of the line and IRF's (incident reports) just named him as everyone knew who and what he was about ! ....A few delays were still being booked down to him even after he had died (Trust me .. no tears were shed !) |
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Did that approach work?
Instead I took the train out of service at the next stop and told the passengers why over the PA, they had words instead !
