Sidings at Harrow and Wealdstone

Bound to be shot down in flames by someone who knows better, but.... I wouldn't have thought so as trains can also reverse South straight out of the n/b platform.

Indeed, but isn't this move dangerous in 1972 stock due to the positioning of the conductor rails? ISTR hearing that if trains don't proceed at a certain speed past the wrong-road starter, they will (not might, will) get gapped...

Indeed. But if Kenny L succeeds in getting the NLL, WLL and DC lines all folded into TfL London Rail, surely service levels will begin to go up... right?

Depending on what Kenny L thinks up when TfL London Rail gets ahold of the Silverlink Metro franchise, that might just happen.



I suspect that this delay is timetabled instead of enforced by the layout. If you compressed the turnaround time to the minimum (i.e. 4 minutes or the length of time needed to clear the route from the n/b platform and set the route into the s/b platform, whichever is longer), you could probably turn around faster.



You can do that with one siding, with proper signalling in place on the through passenger lines. At H&W, you would need stepping back and a fast signalman to get 12tph with one siding.



The 1972mkII fleet was procured ten years before the cessation of LT services to Watford Junction, so unless BAET knows otherwise, stock is not an issue.

As I stated above, once Kenny L has the reins of the Silverlink Metro franchise, he may very well change the whole service provision around so significantly that fitting in the LU services amongst the NR services wouldn't be a problem.

There will be conflictions, but a 12TPH service can be made to work around them easily to reverse via two sidings. Its almost exactly what happens now on the Piccadilly Line into/out of Heathrow Airport; theres a 12 TPH service reversing via two platforms, throughout most of the day. The only difference is that thise trains can run straight into their platforms, but here on the Bakerloo line, all trains need to detrain first.

I know - I forgot to mention that little detail though



Indeed. I apologize for not mentioning it - I was speaking in terms of what was physically possible, not whether or not it was workable.

TOK, no worries matey, I just love to pick holes in someones idea's, and there you was ;D ;D ;D

I believe the sidings were rationalised after the loss of the Watford service and the temporary removal of Bakerloo services north of Stonebridge Park.

Here's a photo of Harrow No. 2 diagram:

www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?name=Harrow%20No2&photo=gallery/lm/harrow2-d2.jpg


I mentioned in a letter to Underground News that the removal of the semaphores at H&W (which was in fact delayed by a week from the scheduled weekend) meant the last "semaphores" used by LU trains had gone. The previous removal was, and I wish I could remember when the weekend was, but it was Friday-Sunday on the Richmond-Gunnersbury line possibly and I am going by the closure of Gunnersbury 'box 26th March 1980, weekend 28th March? or was it 1983 when Boll Lane 'box had a new panel? I know someone has a definitive date! I was down there on the Saturday hoping to see the signals still in situ but they had already been removed and laid down on the ground, and were then recycled into store. It was also significant as Class 33 and 73 locos were hauling spoil trains via the rarely-used then unelectrified single line connecting the Richmond line with the Up Windsor north of Richmond. This was later electrified to enable SR slam stock to work the line to North Woolwich. Is it still there?

Richmond apparently became WBG in 1980 with a new panel, and this is what the 'box looked like in '05:
tillyweb.biz/gallery/rr/richmond1.jpg

Thanks Bill...that's where I got the info from, and also that on Bollo Lane.

But nobody seems to be asking more significant questions about this proposal:

- Will TfL pay to have the DC lines completely rebuilt and resignalled? The track north of Wembley Central is in an utterly horrific state, and the signalling is not of a particularly high capacity.
- How high a level of service can the Bakerloo reasonably operate? Despite the unused capacity of the tube route the signalling at Queens Park is not optimal for through services; if new services are laid on, will the site be able to operate without jamming up?
- Persuant to above, will Buffalo & Rook station be able to reverse a full service from Watford Junction, Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park without grinding to a halt? Or will we need a flying terminus at Camberwell?

and finally, the most significant question of all:

- Where is the Bakerloo going to store the 8-10 extra trains it will create from the 1967TS? Croxley Green Depot is long gone and Stonebridge Park/London Road Depots and Queens Park Sdgs will not hold any more trains. Unless outstabling is to be regularly practiced, I have a sinking feeling that there will be a lot of stock diagramming headaches until storage for the new trains is sorted out.

I agree this is quite a large project and i assume the track will be upgraded in line with the new signalling and power supplies for the new stock. This would make sense to have a blanket attack on the whole line to bring it up to scratch.

With regards to stabling. I would say rather than just one main area required to stable extra stock that there would be various additions throughout the line to hole a train or two.

As mentioned re instating the extra siding at Harrow would help and also would if possible an extra siding or two at Stonebridge with possible lengthening of some siding in the depot to accomadate and extra train.

Also i've noticed there is a patch of land just outside Watford junc. stn which has a small siding or train wash on it. Never seen it used. This land could accomadate a possible two or three sidings. And what about the patch of land where the croxley green line used to branch off the main. Maybe another two there. I suppose all in all it's possible.

Queens Park will be improved under the track project as it has had some recent work to sort out the foundations.

What's really needed if not already done is a survey of the entire line and land to see where and how the various improvements can be undertaken.

With regards to funding as Tfl is taking control the Bakerloo ext, this resume under LUL umbrella and Metronet. As it's a Tfl project money will come from Tfl but responsibility will lie with Metronet/LUL as did the Waterloo & City line after bought from British Rail.

There is no doubt the money is there but they just have to justify to all on how they spend it to keep it rolling in.

It makes sense to re introduce the Bakerloo to full control as when it comes to re- signalling and new stock it would be a huge headache if the current mixed service/stock and control were retained.

Pretty sure that the site of Croxley depot has long been developed - and in any case the crossover onto the branch was removed and plain lined last year - though some track remains on the branch - albeit in sections with a missing link over the industrial estate / by-pass.

The tip sidings and train wash at Watford are used overnight by the 313 fleet.Outstabling is pretty risky - a 6 car set was almost wrecked - with every window broken about 12 years ago when "left" stabled on the Croxley branch at Watford High St after operating problems caused them to be screwed down short of the station.

Ditto one darent leave anything at Willesden HL reversing sidings without an armed guard -