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Post by matthewthomas on Sept 10, 2005 8:44:50 GMT
I was sitting at Rayners Lane WB the other day waiting for a train to Ruislip.
I then asked myself the question (whilst watching a Pic train being detrained) why do they bother getting people off.
If the driver was to announce clearly 3 times this train terminates here, he could then close the doors and move into the siding and change ends, if there were people who din't get of they would find themselves heading back towards Acton Town?
Does anyone know anything why the passengers HAVE to be detrained.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 10, 2005 8:48:20 GMT
I presume it is because the signals for the siding are disc signals rather than coloured light signals. AIUI T/ops are not allowed to drive their train past a shunt signal when there are passengers on it. This brings me on to a question I've been meaning to ask for a while, but I'll ask it on the singalling thread as its more apropriate there. Link hereChris |
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Post by c5 on Sept 10, 2005 9:41:50 GMT
Your correct, trains cannot pass a Shunt Signal with passengers on.
Also the reason for staff checking inside the cars that all passengers have got off when detraining, is following an incident at Liverpool St on the Central (me thinks?) a woman tried to leave the train between cars whilst it was being shunted to the sideing and she was killed.
Now all "passenger overcarries" to Depots/Sidings must be reported to the NCC and then the HMRI.
C5
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Post by Admin Team on Sept 10, 2005 10:10:22 GMT
Your correct, trains cannot pass a Shunt Signal with passengers on. Also the reason for staff checking inside the cars that all passengers have got off when detraining, is following an incident at Liverpool St on the Central (me thinks?) a woman tried to leave the train between cars whilst it was being shunted to the sideing and she was killed. Now all "passenger overcarries" to Depots/Sidings must be reported to the NCC and then the HMRI. C5 And just to expand on this a little further, there is now a rule in the Working Reference Manual (WRM) that states (and this is the short version of course!) that the T/Op, having closed the train up, should make a Public Address announcement to his/her (hopefully) empty train reqiesting that if there is anyone on board they should operate an emergency alarm to alert him/her to their presence so that they can be detrained. (For the benefit of any colleagues here who didn't know that, if you PM me I'll try to find the actual reference in full.) |
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 10, 2005 12:51:35 GMT
What would be the costs involved in signalling all reversing sidings to a normal standard, so this kerfuffle can be avoided?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 10, 2005 13:11:25 GMT
A lot.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 10, 2005 13:37:13 GMT
What would be the costs involved in signalling all reversing sidings to a normal standard, so this kerfuffle can be avoided? It would NEVER be done. As was said earlier, people have been killed trying to leave a train that is in a siding. Taking customer's to places like this is unproffesional and downright dangerous. Also, points with colour light signals, by law have to have the locks proven, whereas on a shunt signal this is not the case as passengers are not carried over them. So by taking a passenger over them, we would also be breaking the law. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Sept 10, 2005 13:51:35 GMT
PLease folks look at ChrisAwkward42' thread herehe took the bother to post the general question in the Signalling category where it belongs and most of the questions and answers here have already been answered there. |
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Post by Phil on Sept 10, 2005 13:53:15 GMT
What would be the costs involved in signalling all reversing sidings to a normal standard, so this kerfuffle can be avoided? Tom can you explain WHY you would want to take passengers into a siding? I really don't understand. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2005 13:58:11 GMT
At one time, the instructions were if you were just reversing and nor stabling to announce "All Change" 3 times on the PA. This was changed to the current arrangements after someone was killed at Liverpool Street, trying to leave a train going into Liverpool Street Sidings on the Central line.
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Post by robots on Sept 10, 2005 23:56:44 GMT
On the Picc the rule was changed after a passenger was overcarried into
Northfields sidings and killed as they attempted to leave the moving train.
The rule was only changed combine wide after the virtually identical incident at
Liverpool St . I believe dedicated detrainment staff were provided at Northfields
and Rayners Lane following the Northfields incident.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2005 1:12:27 GMT
I can recall a 38TS in the early 1960s which for some reason was being terminated at the Mill Hill East platform at Finchley Central. The guard checked each car to see it was empty, then pressed the button on the car end to close the doors on that car. The train then moved off to the reversing siding that existed to the west of the station between the two MHE lines.
Obviously at that time there were instructions to check that trains were empty.
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 11, 2005 15:15:14 GMT
What would be the costs involved in signalling all reversing sidings to a normal standard, so this kerfuffle can be avoided? Tom can you explain WHY you would want to take passengers into a siding? I really don't understand. I wouldn't *want* passengers to go into a siding, but if the staff could just announce "All Change" a few times, close up and leave rather than checking each car surely it would speed things up? Then if someone was overcarried it wouldn't be a major H&S issue, just get off when you're back in the station and change platforms. |
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Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 11, 2005 15:38:43 GMT
I wouldn't *want* passengers to go into a siding, but if the staff could just announce "All Change" a few times, close up and leave rather than checking each car surely it would speed things up? Sadly there are far too many people who simply don't listen to announcements. Additionally there are the people who have gone to sleep (often through over indulgence) and get confused and very agitated upon waking and finding themselves somewhere they don't expect to be. It can become an H&S issue when they blame the T/Op for delaying them on their journey and want to kick his/her head in as the T/Op changes ends. |
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Post by Colin on Sept 11, 2005 23:27:43 GMT
Then if someone was overcarried it wouldn't be a major H&S issue, just get off when you're back in the station and change platforms. Actually it would be a H&S issue! The instruction to detrain each car individually is issued to LUL by HMRI. It is therefore a legal requirement, is part of LUL's safety case, and has been so since the Liverpool Street incident. Anyone that does not carry out this procedure correctly, is effectively committing an offence. |
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Sept 12, 2005 7:11:21 GMT
Then if someone was overcarried it wouldn't be a major H&S issue, just get off when you're back in the station and change platforms. Actually it would be a H&S issue! The instruction to detrain each car individually is issued to LUL by HMRI. It is therefore a legal requirement, is part of LUL's safety case, and has been so since the Liverpool Street incident. Anyone that does not carry out this procedure correctly, is effectively committing an offence. Absoutely correct Colin - and it is the reason that we have an Upminster driver pending a DB (disciplinary board) for not detraining correctly at Parsons Green, and then lying about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2006 21:32:26 GMT
Sorry to restart this thread, but....
Will it be likely that when the more inescapable trains (i.e with continuous gangways) such as the SSL stock are delivered, that the tipping out rule may be relaxed? Saying that, there arn't many reversing sidings on the SSLs anyway! Crossrail has been allowed to take passengers into specially designed reversing sidings as part of it's safety case.
Also, when lines such as the Jubilee and Northern has train positioning by axle counter instead of track circuit, then the signalling issue for tipping out will probably be redundant. But the trains will still be escapable, so I guess that the tipping out rule will still apply? Even the DLR has a tipping out rule, and that has inescapable trains, and axle countered signalling!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 5, 2006 21:37:57 GMT
I would doubt the rule will get relaxed - despite having a continuous gangway with S stock the issue about the less stringent requirements for route holding will still apply and the rule will probably still be enforced on those grounds.
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